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I have ordered my Elferink Archtop ; 16 Inch Jesse van Ruller. With basic specs and I came across with some options for my guitar.
I am thinking of my Tuning machines between Schaller M6 and Gotoh 510. What would be fit well and smooth, stay in tune?
Also I would like to know some difference between electronics mount ; floating and built-in pickup, (Pickup would be Kent Armstrong 12pole Humbucker) and control knobs mount on pickguard or body. What do you prefer and why.
Just I want to know some aspects of these options and get my specs confirmed.
Thank you
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02-04-2022 04:40 AM
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Elferinks can sound really good acoustically (check Rob MacKillop's recordings on his) so if you plan to play it like that I'd go with a floating pickup and pickguard-mounted controls. That way the top can vibrate as freely as possible.
No idea about the tuners but I'm tempted to say both should be fine; you should be able to choose based on aesthetics and possibly tuning ratios. Personally I find that flat-wound strings bind more easily than round-wounds and I *guess* that would be a bit less annoying with tuners that require less turning (ratio closer to 1).
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Have you chosen the Ruller model because the 16" body size fits you better or because you like the sound he got with it ? His has a (old?) DeArmond singlecoil pickup mounted into the top, just like the old Levin guitar that he used as a model. If I remember correctly the Ruller model is also a little deeper than the usual 16" guitars we normally see, you might want to check this. As far as the tonal differences go between the built-in and floating pickups the common notion is that the floating solution will deliver a slightly more transparent or airy tone whereas a built-in pickup gets you closer into the classic Bebop/electric Jazz Guitar realm. This is just a very broad generalisation since many more factors also contribute to the basic tonecolor of the guitar, your own playing technique being the most important. Re the controls : I find and found that top-mounted controls vs pickguard-mounted is purely a matter of personal preference re ergonomics and aesthetics (some do not like the look of the knobs on the guitar's top).
There is no "best way", only your own preference based on experience + taste. Your new Elferink guitar will be an excellent instrument and with a little effort, patience and dilligence on your part it will do what you want it to - you will also learn to work and live with the little character perks that every guitar brings to the table !
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As far as the tuners go, both are high quality units. Pick the ones that look better to your eyes.
As far as choosing a floating versus mounted pick up, this is a devils bargain either way. The floating pickup leaves the acoustic vibration of the top alone, but the amplified sound is not along the lines of a Gibson L5 or ES 175. It tends to be thinner, brighter, stringier. Think Johnny Smith, George Benson. For some people that's exactly what they're looking for. If you want to have a more classic electric jazz guitar tone, I think you are probably going to want to have it mounted in the top. Think Wes Montgomery, Tal Farlow. However, that does reduce the acoustic quality of the guitar by loading an extra mass into the top.
My archtop guitars have floaters (an Ibanez GB10 and a 17" Benedetto style), and I have mostly struggled with getting an amplified tone that I like. The 17" has been through five different pickups over the last 15 years without ever really satisfying me. Currently it has a Gibson Classic 57 modified to be a floater, which has been the best of the bunch. On the other hand, the acoustic quality of that instrument is superb and I really, really do like that. So when I play gigs I usually use a solidbody, with which is pretty easy to get the tone I want. Or the GB10 which avoids the bassiness due to the smaller, less resonant body.
So the choice of floater vs. mounted depends on the sound you want to get. Elferink can walk you through this effectively, I would think.
I have also found that amplifier choice can make a huge difference. My Monday jamming partner has a '69 Twin Reverb and the archtops sound great through that (as do my solidbodies with different EQ). He also has a Tone Master Deluxe Reverb which sounds really good, but there is something about having 2x12 in the Twin that really rounds out the sound. I have a tweed Deluxe clone and it does not flatter the archtops (too bassy, for one thing), but sounds fabulous with my solidbodies and semi-hollow.
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I would talk with the luthier about it. Usually pickups on the top suit guitars going for an electric sound, with the proper bracing of the top. Pickups that are suspended suit guitars going for an acoustic sound, so again, different bracing and construction.
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What's the main reason for the difference in electric tone between a top-mounted and a floating pickup?
Supposing it isn't the pickup itself, isn't it possible to think of a way where you can consolidate the PU with/onto the top for playing electrified, and lift it back off (or possibly remove the entire subsystem) for playing acoustically?
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The tone differences between floaters and mounteds seem to be due to several factors. The first is that floating pickups tend to be lower output. By necessity, they are smaller. Their electromagnetic field is often smaller. The second difference is that mounted pickups are, well, mounted. They are part of the top and have a dampening effect from their weight. They also usually have hardware for volume and tone fixed to the top. The third factor is that often guitars with mounted pickups tend to have heavier tops.
Originally Posted by RJVB
These three factors don't always apply to an individual guitar.
The work around for the purist is to own two guitars.
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For example, my Elferink has a suspended pickup and pickguard, and is very acoustic, sensitive and responsive in nature. At some point i changed the pots to put them underneath the pickguard (cause they were in the way of my hand), and the tech that did the work (not Elferink) put a little hard sponge underneath the pickguard to better support it. But now whenever i hit the pickguard a bit hard with the nails or the fingers, the noise goes through the top and it's noticeable, and i have to deal with it, i'll probably remove the piece at some point. So i think it's better to discuss every little detail with the luthier that is building the guitar, chances are whatever the issues or dilemmas, they have faced them again and can direct you the best.
When referring to electric and acoustic sound, i mean sound that's being amplified with a pickup in both cases, not completely acoustic archtops. Electric would be Benson type, where the guitar is optimized to play electrically and loud, usually parallel bracing, humbuckers (say PAF), maybe even some laminate woods. 175 is a good example, or many Gibson and Ibanez archtops. Acoustic would be lighter bracing, x-braced, all solid woods, maybe single coil or acoustic type pickups (say Ken Armstrong). The Benedetto sound is a good example (although he does electrics too).
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My 18 inch Elferink Excalibur is acoustic with a floating KA. It is very responsive and acoustically as it is makes a fine guitar. Plugging it in the KA draws a warm sound not as bright as some archtop but frankly it is a very different electric sound than my Super 400ces.
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I have a Tonemaster with a floating Charlie Christian humbucker that sounds excellent. But I think overall I prefer a neck humbucker top mounted overall.
Definitely go with the Gotoh 510 tuners, you won’t regret it!
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I will pop in my pet theory here. I believe, without a shred of scientific support but merely observation of a few guitars, that there is a different amplified tonal quality if the pickup is mounted in the top, mounted to the end of the neck by a bracket like the Gibson Johnny Smith, or mounted to the pickguard like Benedetto.
If the pickup is mounted, it is integral to the top and responds to all of the vibrations- as the top vibrates, so does the pickup. This makes for a more complex interaction with the vibrations of the strings. If the pickup is mounted to the end of the neck by a bracket, it is somewhat isolated from the vibrations of the top but still is connected to the vibrations present at the end of the neck. If the pickup is mounted on the pickguard, it is pretty much decoupled from the top and is mostly just reading the strings.
There are obvious flaws in this theory. One of them is the differences in the pickups themselves. Mounted pickups are more likely to be a full-size PAF; pickups mounted onto the neck or under the pickguard are more likely to be mini humbuckers. Full size versus mini pickups have a different tone to begin with. Also, guitars with mounted pickups tend to have both tone and volume controls where as floaters often only have a volume control. And most of the time a mounted humbucker is suspended upon springs or surgical rubber tubing which may also affect the final tone. Apples to apples testing on this subject has not been done as far as I know.
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I've posted my limited experience with floating VS set pickups before, but this looks like a good place to say it again. I think that when people talk about this they're often not comparing apples to apples, as they say. Very often it's a smaller Johnny Smith type floater being compared to a full size hum bucker set pickup. As someone said earlier, the prevailing wisdom is a generalizaton.
I have one very lightly built Eastman with Vermont made KA set 12 pole, and I have a heavier built Lehmann with Vermont made 12 pole KA floater. Pups are both solid epoxy body. They are both the same size. Almost identical pickups. I have no way of knowing if they have the same magnets or windings. I do know the wiring hookup is different. They are about the same distance from the strings.
Both are X braced, maple body, spruce top, maple neck, ebony fretboard and bridge, 16" wide and 2 3/4 deep. The strings are the same gauge. Though I'm currently running bronze on the Lehmann I did have the same nickel wounds on both for a year. It's about as close as you can get to apples to apples.
The main physical difference between the 2 guitars that I can see is the thickness of the top, and possibly weight of bracing.
The heavier Lehman with floater actually has more of the woodier L5 electric sound, with the stronger fundamental tone. The Eastman with set pickup has the more 'acoustic' airier sound, with more upper harmonics and 'natural reverb'. This is true for both acoustic and electric sound. The lighter, set-pickup Eastman is more sensitive to feedback.
In this case, it's the box itself that seems to influence the electric sound much more than the choice of floater or set. In fact, my experience here is the opposite of the prevailing wisdom. The set pickup in lighter box sounds more 'acoustic'.
The difference in tone is obvious to me. Most civilians I've tested think they both sound great and have no way to describe the slight difference. To me the Lehmann sounds 'bigger' due to the stronger fundamental. My wife described the Eastman as 'bigger', possibly due to the wider range of upper harmonics.
Sorry if I'm repeating what has been seen before. And sorry that it doesn't actually help the OP all that much. As we always say, the tone of an instrument is the sum total of all it's parts. I'd probably go with Frans' advice, as no-one knows his guitars better. I'm sure that either way OP will be happy with his Elf!
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Ha! Just read Cuna's post which he made while I was writing my encyclopedic post. (takes me a while). We've had this conversation before! I think he's got a point as well.
And it's true that my floater doesn't have a tone control while my set pickup does. And my Lehmann has a bigger neck than my Eastman. The variables are endless...
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Hyup, tuning in kind of late. Frist, congrats on the impending Elferink Jesse Van Rüller. It reminds me of my 2010 Gibson L-4CES with a single neck pickup.
Go with the Gotoh 510 tuning machines.
It is kind of a strange question to ask about inset humbucker pickup vs.floating pickup because I think you would know your own preference by now. I can only assume Elferink carves the top differently for the inset humbucker from the top meant for a floating pickup. The one thing going for the standard inset Gibson humbucker form factor is that there are more of them to choose from made by different winders. So, you are spoilt for choice when it comes to swapping out pickups. For floating pickups, you are basically looking at the Johnny Smith style or the Kent Armstrong 12-pole PAF style. There are other styles such as the DeArmond 1000 or 1100 but the majority of floaters folk use the Johnny Smith or the Kent Armstrong Floating PAF. I am ready to be corrected on this point.
If you take a look around you will see that 99 out of 100 archtop electric guitars chosen by the good folk here are of the inset humbucker style. This is the most dominant form. The P90 is hardly even mentioned.
So, the rule of thumb is: inset topmounted humbucker goes with inset topmounted tone and volume pots; floating pickup goes with pickguard mounted pots. Pickguard mounted pots especially those Schatten thumbwheels are a bit of a faff to twiddle!
The thing is this: an inset humbucker is more an electric archtop than a floating pickup which is more an electric acoustic archtop. So, you decide: Do you want an electric archtop sound or an acoustic sound amplified?
The winds and construction of the Kent Armstrong 12-pole floating PAF makes it sound different from an inset humbucker. Elferink may possibly carve or brace his top differently for a floating pickup compared to an inset humbucker. It really depends on what you want to hear.
I suggest that you check out Youtube for tones of the two styles of pickups and guitars and decide for yourself what your preference is. Check out Graham Dechter and his Andersen Streamline with a John Carruthers floating pickup. Then check out the Gibson L-4CES or Heritage Sweet 16.
Not to muddy the waters further but you could have Franz Elferink install an inset humbucker and a K&K Soundboard Transducers and have the best or worst of both worlds.
Why don't you talk to Franz Elferink? I am sure he would be in the best position to advise you. He may even adjust the way he graduates the top to your choice of pickups.
OK, back under my rock I go.
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Thank you guys for all your kindness
I am keeping touch with Frans Elferink and it is fine to consider with time
Since I have to wait til March 2023 for it. I would like to post some of my axe when it is done.Last edited by Hyup; 02-09-2022 at 08:01 AM.
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This. The Elferinks I've heard played acoustically are wonderful instruments. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Call me old-fashioned or even iconoclast, but I don't see the point of ordering a master-grade instrument that's painstakingly hand-built & carved to deliver the best tonal response, and then degrade that by installing hardware for a completely different kind of sound output which from what I understand could well work better anyway if the instrument were of an opposite kind of build to limit feedback (laminates, sound posts and what else).
I can appreciate the sound of an electric guitar, but (not to tread on anyones toes) I can't help but think you can get just about any possible kind of sound from your preferred type of PU/strings combination even if mounted on a simple stick - just run the output through a sound processor programmed to do what it takes. That's bound to be a lot cheaper and faster (as long as you don't hire someone to write custom software
)
FWIW, about those thumbwheel controls. I discussed putting a more conventional pot at an appropriate place in the sides (like the preamp controls in electro-acoustics), and get rid of the pickguard. My tech was willing to that, but pointed out that this would require drilling a hole in the top. I suppose that a tiny hole wouldn't have a significant effect on the acoustic sound in itself, but routing a cable through there is probably going to add a source of buzzing.
Exactly what transducer would that be? One of those piezo elements that slips under the bridge, or an actual mike that picks up the actual acoustic voice? Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
I think K&K make the mike installed inside certain high-end flattops (or is that LR Baggs?); if I were to spend €€€ on a hand-carved archtop I'd probably have one of those installed. Seems impossible to do that afterwards without opening the instrument...
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