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PS, the absolute most important part is the guy who does the final fretwork and setup. That's the difference between a dog and a great instrument.
A squire with meticulous fretwork and a good set of pickups will likely kick the butt of an off the shelf American strat.
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01-26-2022 04:01 PM
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When Ted McCarty and his team were creating what was to become the Les Paul guitar, they set a goal of 24 (22?) seconds of sustain. They tried different combinations of wood for the body and settled on a flat-sawn Hard Maple cap over a quarter-sawn Mahogany body. It was not an arbitrary choice, they experimented to get the sustain they wanted. What is sustain? It is the rate at which the vibrating string dissipates energy, either to drive a soundboard (acoustic guitar, amplified or acoustic) or to induce current in a magnetic pickup (solid- or semi- bodied electric guitar). If a specific combination and deployment of different species/cuts of wood affects sustain, then it must also affect tone. Whether or not said tonal differences are within the cognitive capacities of a given set of ears and discernible, they are nonetheless real. Wood is the soul of the instrument, IMO.
Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.
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If the Citizen is correct (and I am sure he is), then we are hostages to fortune. All the other components are made, but timber is grown. Supply of the timbers we prefer could be affected by politics, wars, climate change, destructive insects and all manner of unforeseen events. We should cling to our guitars.
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I'll take the red one. I don't have a red guitar.
Originally Posted by raymoan
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Usually, much more than just that piece of wood is changed in a neck or body swap. It may not have been the wood that made any audible changes - it may have been the act of reassembling the instrument. For me, the join between neck and body is a critical contributor to tone. Getting the best from a bolt-on means having the best, most uniform contact between neck and body. Loose screws abound because few players ever check them after purchase. Firm neck-body contact is essential for tone and sustain, and you can't assume that any neck that fits in the pocket and takes the screws is well and properly fitted. And even if the same old hardware is swapped from old to new body, simply installing it well and securing all fasteners properly can eliminate resonances and looseness that were degrading tone and/or reducing sustain with the old body. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Neck swapping often means hardware swapping too, if you use what's on the new neck or use the change as an opportunity to upgrade. I've had guitars on which swapping light, cheap and chintsy tuners for good solid ones clearly improved tone (maybe even because the cheap tuners were loose inside and contributed ghost tones). String trees also help on some guitars with small angles of string departure above the nut (regardless of headstock design).
I've made what I thought were significant improvements in tone, sustain, and responsiveness on 2 entry level Strats by cleaning, lightly skim-filling irregularities, & sanding the surfaces of the neck pockets for full contact between neck heel and pocket. There was a sticker in the neck pocket of my old Epi Strat-oid, and I've seen bits of debris between neck and pocket on several guitars over the years. It's also amazing to see what's been used for neck shims. Playing cards were common when I was a kid, but I've seen everything from matchbook covers to table leg shims in there. Good wood neck shims are $10 from Stew-Mac, and they come in multiple thicknesses and angles. There's no excuse for shoving a piece of paper in there.
To properly complete and evaluate a neck or body swap, it has to be done as an act of lutherie - not an act of vandalism.
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I don't know if it's audio engineering or a sonic Rorschach test.
I do know that I can get close to my usual sound on any solid or semi-with-block guitar with a neck humbucker.
Close, not identical.
Comparisons are difficult. Quick story.
For many years I played an L5S, that's a solid body with L5 trim. It's a maple guitar and it has a more biting (or something) sound than other guitars. I assumed that was the maple body. Until, somebody on this forum pointed out that the fancy pointy end of the fingerboard near the pickup looked great, but required that the pick up be further toward the bridge -- behind the node. And, this poster suggested that that might be one reason why the L5S was never that popular, despite being a beautiful guitar visually.
So, maybe it wasn't the maple, but it was the screwed up location of the pickup.
I have no idea. This guitar is also one of the few with the so-called harmonica bridge. And, the body is smaller. etc. etc. How can I ever really know why?
Experts might remind me that the L5S came with different pus too. In my case, Super Humbuckers. But, I replaced the neck pickup with a paf reissue years ago and that did improve the sound a bit to my ear.
The things I think I can hear: Single coil vs humbucker. Maybe scale length, maybe not. That doesn't mean that every guitar with the same scale length and a HB sounds the same to me. But I can't reliably identify the source of the variation.
Last week, I raised the stop tailpiece on my Comins GCS-1 in an effort to soften the feel of the action. I thought a shallower breakover angle might help. Since then, the guitar doesn't sound quite right and I can't figure out if it's my imagination. Maybe it's variation in temperature because we don't heat the place at night.
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It wasn't a case of poor work or substituted components, it was the wood. None of the other standard guitar woods sound like poplar. Messing up a neck joint or swapping hardware doesn't cause a mid swamp. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Having spent the day thinking on the subject whilst trying to learn CAD, I can say this.
I've got a head ache!
Ok.. I believe in all the tone wood stories. I too as previously stated, understand and believe I can hear the same differences that 'tone enthusiast' claim they can hear. I do have ears after all.
The only difference is, I know there is enough evidence to the contrary that I can't believe it blindly.
Does an SG sound different because it's solid mahogany or because the body is thinner? Can you really hear the difference between an ash body and an alder one?
If you can, knock yourself out but that's where I get off the train to toneville because the variation within a species is greater than between species.
Like Citizen, that's my final 2 pence worth.
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If there's evidence that shows wood affects tone, which there is, other inconclusive instances are irrelevant lol! I'm worried about your thinking.. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
I know in general what I like. My favorite body woods are swamp ash and basswood, with a standard all maple or maple/rosewood neck. I do the rest of the guitar how I want and change the tone with the pickups and strings. It sounds like what it sounds like because of the wood variation and I'm fine with that. But there's no way in hell I'm gonna play a poplar guitar because 'it could be bias.'Does an SG sound different because it's solid mahogany or because the body is thinner? Can you really hear the difference between an ash body and an alder one? If you can, knock yourself out but that's where I get off the train to toneville because the variation within a species is greater than between species.
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I'll just muddy the waters with some of my past, personal observations. I had an amazing sounding tele, with a neck I hated, and an esquire that sounded like shit, but had an amazing playing neck. I swapped necks to get the best playing, best sounding guitar. Both were maple necked. The killer tone followed the neck. I was not expecting that. As another.....years and years ago, I was really into Rickenbackers. Most people think its about the pickups, but I've had Ricks routed for PAFs, and they sound like a Rickenbacker. All of the varieties of Rickenbacker pickups, sound like Rickenbackers. Put a tune-o-matic on a Rickenbacker, and it no longer sounds like a Rickenbacker. Thats another one I wasn't expecting. I think lots more goes into the equation besides pickup, and pickup height. Chasing tone is fun, defining tone is futile. Figuring out where it comes from is like trying to figure out where art comes from. For me, its best to just enjoy it. Also.....I'm drunk.
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For what it is worth, Poplar is known by luthiers as a tone sucker. It tends to dampen vibrations, and that may be why it is used between maple veneers to encourage "Thunk" in my favorite 175 and warm the tone of my 3xxs. It is why, when I built a cab to house a 15"JBL D130F (if I remember aright), I used poplar, and plenty of it. Five-quarter (1 & 3/16") of Tulip Poplar heartwood, jade green and nearly as hard as the wood ages. Heavy and completely without resonances to muddy the clarity and punch of the Jibble. Two 6L6s in the Music Man 112 RD (also JBL loaded - 1 12") gave it lots of oomph, and the three-spring Accutronics reverb was icing on the cake. Letting that pair out of my sight was a major blunder.
Last edited by citizenk74; 01-27-2022 at 01:32 PM. Reason: change D120F to D130F Thx, HT!
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Where does the tone come from in electric guitar... (which is the title of this thread)
Assuming you are referring to a good guitar, tonewood is pretty far down the list, yes it can make a difference, but things that in my experience make more of a difference in a tele than say ash vs. alder vs mahogany vs. even pine. More important than which type of tonewood:
the pickups
front vs. back pickup
the guitar volume and treble settings
the amp
the amp settings
the amp speaker
the strings
pick vs fingerpicking
nails vs flesh
attacking the string near the bridge vs attacking the string near the neck
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Biggest change in tone I ever achieved on my electrics (solids., semis and archtops) was by switching plectrums……
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If it was a grey spider 15" JBL used for guitar, most likely a wide-range D130F or D130. D120 was 12"; D110 was 10"; D140 was 15" bass speaker. Originally Posted by citizenk74
For what it is worth, Poplar is known by luthiers as a tone sucker. It tends to dampen vibrations, and that may be why it is used between maple veneers to encourage "Thunk" in my favorite 175 and warm the tone of my 3xxs. It is why, when I built a cab to house a 15"JBL D120F (if I remember aright), I used poplar, and plenty of it. Five-quarter (1 & 3/16") of Tulip Poplar heartwood, jade green and nearly as hard as the wood ages. Heavy and completely without resonances to muddy the clarity and punch of the Jibble. Two 6L6s in the Music Man 112 RD (also JBL loaded - 1 12") gave it lots of oomph, and the three-spring Accutronics reverb was icing on the cake. Letting that pair out of my sight was a major blunder.
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Some people have emotional bonds with wood and find comfort in the notion that the wood "is what it is", understood; there's no point trying to improve the performance of a guitar because "it is what it is". This rationale is further exploited in various marketing efforts targeting this group and reinforcing a mindset; the more exclusive the wood, the more exclusive the tone.
Some people have emotional bonds with electric circuits and claim they know the sound of a paper in oil capacitor. You won't be able to talk them straight, because their spirit is strong. There's no problem that can't be fixed with a soldering iron and these guys like to solder. When your only tool is a soldering iron, then every problem looks like a cold solder joint.
Some people play solidbody electrics unplugged exclusively (for real) and they much prefer resonant solidbody guitars. These guys know amazing stuff about "acoustic qualities" of solidbody electrics.
"Setup" is a word with many interpretations but without a universal definition. Some believe it's a service that can be bought, something about new strings, a ruler and a business card. The guy that glued the wood pieces together and sprayed the paint is referred to as a "Luthier", whereas the guy performing the setup service is called a "Tech". (He is called a tech because he's the one with the soldering iron). For some reason the Luthier went out for a smoke when the tech took over, looking for cold solder joints.
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It was indeed a D130F, taken from a Dual Showman Reverb. Thank you for jogging my memory! We had some friends over for dinner. He was a co-worker and had electrical experience. I mentioned that the cab was sounding funny, so we took it apart and lo! and behold! The top speaker was blown, b/c the bottom speaker either was never hooked up, or had worked its way loose (the spring-clamp connectors were empty) and so the cab had been used taking the full brunt of the quartet of American-made 6L6s for all these years of hard use. Which meant that the bottom speaker was broken in, but hardly used per se, if at all. I sent the blown speaker to be re-coned; LSS - it was lost and I accepted a 12" JBL as a replacement, putting it directly in the first-run Music Man 112 RD, doubling its weight (JK! It only seemed like it.), and then constructed the aforementioned speaker cab for the desolate 15" JBL. The combination was magic. Originally Posted by Hammertone
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Plectrum, strings, guitar and amp are all important aspects of tone for me. Changing any of those things changes tone. Changing the speaker or tubes in an amp changes tone. Changing pickups, bridges, tuners, pots , capacitors and necks changes the tone. Changing the setup of a guitar or the bias of an amp changes tone.
With all these variables to dial in, it is a wonder any of us have enough time to play the damn guitar at all.
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The neck of a solid-body guitar is at least 50% responsible (and arguably more) for the way strings vibrate and decay, and thus they affect the tone of the expressed note. Between the nut and the neck joint is a considerable stretch, and the neck is less stiff than the body, where a greater mass dissipates vibrational energy at a different rate than the whippier neck. SG players know what I mean. Archtop hollowbodies are a different kettle of fish; having been crafted to turn vibrations into sound radiating from the top (prior to electrification), the situation is reversed, with the neck being the stiffer part. Floating pickups will exhibit this difference the most; mounted pick-ups add weight to the vibrating top and tip the balance a bit, depending on how heavy and how many there are. All in my most humble opinion. Originally Posted by customxke
Ricks are a special case. Do they have a double truss rod? That would greatly affect the neck's resonance, I would think. Less wood/more steel surely makes a difference. Similarly, glued-in steel reinforcing rods must vibrate differently than an adjustable unit. A humongous 30's style neck with no rod will have its own character, and a Les Paul neck shaved to a given player's preference must resonate differently from one with a different wood:metal ratio. These are all small difference, to be sure, but I think they add up.
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If you can hear the difference between a double truss rod and a neck without one, in a blind test, I'd be amazed. Originally Posted by citizenk74
The neck of a solid-body guitar is at least 50% responsible (and arguably more) for the way strings vibrate and decay, and thus they affect the tone of the expressed note. Between the nut and the neck joint is a considerable stretch, and the neck is less stiff than the body, where a greater mass dissipates vibrational energy at a different rate than the whippier neck. SG players know what I mean. Archtop hollowbodies are a different kettle of fish; having been crafted to turn vibrations into sound radiating from the top (prior to electrification), the situation is reversed, with the neck being the stiffer part. Floating pickups will exhibit this difference the most; mounted pick-ups add weight to the vibrating top and tip the balance a bit, depending on how heavy and how many there are. All in my most humble opinion.
Ricks are a special case. Do they have a double truss rod? That would greatly affect the neck's resonance, I would think. Less wood/more steel surely makes a difference. Similarly, glued-in steel reinforcing rods must vibrate differently than an adjustable unit. A humongous 30's style neck with no rod will have its own character, and a Les Paul neck shaved to a given player's preference must resonate differently from one with a different wood:metal ratio. These are all small difference, to be sure, but I think they add up.
A lot of this must be in the ear of the beholder.
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I already got one response disagreeing with my previous statement that the way a bolt on neck is fitted, joined and secured to the pocket is a major contributor to sound and feel. But I strongly believe this to be the case, based on personal experience with multiple guitars. And you've just indirectly identified a major reason. Originally Posted by citizenk74
Necks and bodies have different acoustic impedances, and the joint between them is an interface across which energy flows - in both directions. There's an inherent impedance mismatch that's similar in concept to driving a highly reactive speaker with an amplifier designed for a purely resistive load. Everything you can do to minimize this mismatch and facilitate energy transfer from neck to body will affect the way the instrument plays and sounds. And I'm sure that some neck designs (both the wood itself and how it was made) are more compatible with some body woods than others.
There are mechanical "transformers" that match impedances between dissimilar elements, e.g. the bones of our middle ears. They match impedance between air and fluid, to maximize energy transfer from the environment to our inner ears. But there's no room for one between the neck heel and the pocket, and no one's yet designed a joint that will accomplish this. So the next best thing for energy transfer is as solid and large an interface between neck and body as can be made. I'm sure that wood selection and basic design of neck and body can also be optimized for minimum energy loss to mismatched acoustic impedance.
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Just wanted to say that in the original clip I was pretty amazed at how similar his 'air guitar' (no neck and no body) sounded to his 'real guitar'. That's at the end of the clip.
This discussion shows up from time to time. Thing is, for the way I play now it's pretty simple: anything that affects the way the string vibrates is heard by the pickup.
For what I was doing 45 years ago it mattered much less: loud fusion with a healthy dose of distortion either from a pedal or the Mesa. When I discovered that my backup Epiphone Sheraton sounded pretty much the same on stage as my LP Custom, I ditched that boat anchor dang quick and got a nice light Rick. Guess what, it sounded pretty much the same as the Sheraton. And my left shoulder and back thanked me every night.
I think that in a given guitar played by the same guy (same attack, strings,pick etc) the biggest diff comes from pickup choice.
I'm into the tone quest as much as the next guy, but it means a lot less in live performance. Course... that's pretty hard to come by these days.
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I would be surprised if a double truss rod set up installed in a Les Paul would contribute in any favorable way tone wise. Aside from tone, they are unnecessary. A properly constructed and installed vintage style single rod works great. I fashion my own and install them in my builds without issue. 2 cents. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Last edited by guitarcarver; 01-28-2022 at 01:18 AM.
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I think all of the guitars I own or owned have or had unique tonal qualities.
People tell me I sound the same on whatever I play.
Well. Tonight I will play my Tele.
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While certainly true and perpetually ongoing from an aesthetic standpoint, there has been some change. Computer based tools allow the average Joe to take an objective look into the sound spectrum that used to require some skill with a rather expensive recording spectrum analyzer. Sometimes seeing stuff on a screen helps hone your ears and many of us can now have these tools to screw around with. You know.. like when I should be actually practicing Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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The break angle over the bridge changes the force perpendicular to the top of the guitar, which definitely affects tone. I’ve confirmed that with a trapeze-style tailpiece. The effect may not be as strong with a stop tailpiece, but I’d expect some difference. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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