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Jazz guitar friends,
Over the summer I picked up an older (90's, Korean) Artstar.
I love this guitar's acoustic sound, but I haven't settled on an amplified sound that works for me.
The neck pickup was replaced with a Benedetto PAF, but the seller gave me the stock Ibanez pickup too. I'm considering having it switched back...
A couple issues
1. volume pots "work" but aren't musical -- anything less than 10 sucks tone and blurs the sound
2. tone pots "work" but rolling off the tone makes sort of a honking sound
3. Benedetto is so hot/full that I can't get a woody, acoustic sound; the bass is boomy and lacks detail; above the 12th fret on G, B, E strings is ear-splitting.
I mean, it sounds pretty amazing in a way, but one-dimensional. Sounds alright through my Champ; sometimes overpowering through my Polytone MiniBrute IV.
Might the stock humbucker have lower gain, more headroom, be closer to an acoustic sound?
Given that this is a student-level guitar, I'm not sure how much work I want to have done on it... replacing electronics and switching pickups could run... a couple hundred bucks?
Advice sought!
Thanks so much!
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12-24-2021 11:48 AM
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Have you lowered the pickup as much as you can? If you really like the guitar and will keep it longterm, it may be worth swapping pups. If you’re just using it while dreaming, saving, planning, on buying something else, I’d would not spend the $$ to make it “ better” for a while. The original pickups probably are just fine. You aren’t the first to be dissatisfied with Benedetto pups.
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Hard to believe a Benedetto pickup would not provide at least a decent tone if properly adjusted. They were made to go on Benedetto guitars, beautiful, carved archtops with fantastic acoustic tone.
Try adjusting the pickups. It's really easy. Get a metal machinist's rule with 1/32 and 1/64 inch increments from the hardware store. Hold the low E string down at the last fret and measure from the bottom of the string to the top of the polepiece. Do the same for the high, treble e string. Adjust up or down with the screws on either side of the pickup. I have yet to hear a neck humbucking pickup that did not sound fairly good at about 3/32 inch. Adjust to taste.
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You... can lower these pickups? Mind blown.
Do I have to take off the cover?
Taking a look now... maybe the four corner screws hold on the cover, and the little ones in the middle control up/down?
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Without knowing the taper and value of your pots, hard to know what is going on. For sure I'd put the original pickup back in place, unless it is damaged.
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Without knowing the taper and value of your pots, hard to know what is going on. For sure I'd put the original pickup back in place, unless it is damaged
Interesting -- what is your rationale for restoring the original pickup? That the electronics were designed to complement each other?
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The Benedetto pickups are designed to be relatively high output, and played with the volume control rolled back. I think they sound very good, better than most other pickups, but my taste is not anyone else's. The pickup height is adjusted by the two screws at the center of the ends. There is a wide range of adjustment. You can get the pickup down somewhat below the level of the rings, up to touching the strings, or anywhere in between. The ideal height is whatever gives you the sound you like. Personally, I would not even consider putting the original pickups back in the guitar.
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Thank you all -- grateful for these different perspectives. I'll try my luck lowering the pickup -- but sgosnell's comment makes me wonder whether the volume pots may be the problem. I'm open to dialing in gain and tone when possible, but to me these pots only sound acceptable at 10.
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So I lowered both pickups -- both are way sounding more musical in my opinion: more acoustic detail, with more opportunity for dynamic expression without heading into boomy/icepick land.
I'd experiment going even lower -- but is there a risk of the spring and nut (or whatever's in there) falling into the body of the guitar if I go too far?
Confirmed that the volume knob is an issue -- turning it down drops the volume a little, until it cuts off suddenly, but mostly it turns down the definition and detail. Maybe they could do this at Buckdancer's... but to me it may be worth the drive to Gary's in Portsmouth... I'll get a ballpark quote.
Again, thank you for this simple fix!
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Okay, good news. You can get higher quality pots and will have a wider palette of tones to draw from. Also, check out this thread;
Amp Up - Guitar Down (Volume)
Merry Christmas everyone.Last edited by whiskey02; 12-26-2021 at 10:48 AM.
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You can back the screws all the way out if you go too far, but the pickup should be well below the level of the top before that happens. The screws are pretty long. If they do come out, they can be replaced, but it's a PITA. The pickups should start to sound weak before the screw ends are reached.
Volume pots come in two flavors - audio taper and linear taper. Some people prefer one, some the other. It's not a big job to replace them, and they aren't expensive. If you have a shop do it, most of the cost will be labor charges. I do them myself.
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Volume pots do come in 2 flavors, audio/linear (how they work), but also 2 sizes - SAE (most American guitars and a small handful of high end Japanese guitars), and Metric. There are also long shaft and short shaft pots. You can't just buy CTS pots and expect them to fit in an Asian guitar that doesn't already have CTS pots, as they simply will not fit. Almost always you'll have to expand the holes to get them to fit. You can expand the holes with a tool from StewMac, or get some sand paper and a pencil and go slowly, or get a tech to do it; but be aware 99% of the time you can't just drop USA pots into a Chines/Indonesian/Korean/Japanese guitar without making the holes wider to fit them. And then you'll need new knobs as well. I have a Tokai Custom Shop Les Paul in the shop right now to get CTS pots put in it because I didn't want to clumsily chip the top making the holes larger myself (and I would have!).
Originally Posted by sgosnell
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All good advice on pot. Sorry, Pots, sorry.
I too was extremely dissatisfied with a Benedetto A6, it was on a Chinese Ibanez AF155F. I also tried it on my PM200 and was equally uninspired. I always crank a pup all the down to the plastic ring level before I play a new instrument. It’s the response/sound table in my head I use to compare. In the case of the A6 it still was just too bright or acoustic sounding to my ear, nor was it’s response to the pick satisfactory. To me. Ive played with all these pole piece ideas but always come back to having them equal about 1/8” above the cover. Some string brands do require a bump up or down on the bass or treble end, yes. Always found that if I don’t stop myself from experimenting like that, then playing time would go all to near zero. It’s the old Elec Tech in me taking over the musician.
Its very difficult in Ibanez world once you are away from a MIJ pup (Super/Silent 58s, etc.) to find out what they are, where and how they were spawned, all that jazz. (Truthfully it’s darn near impossible to find out any real info on their humbuckers p.) Some say the only difference is they ship Japanese parts out to the hinterlands for cheap labor to construct, but if that were true they’d sound more like an MIJ and they don’t.
It’s also not at all surprising to me you may find a stock Ibanez pup more to your liking, or at least a different sound. Mated to the guitar? I don’t know if they go that far. But…
The Benedetto is a very good pickup but has its own sound. It also has its own feel, which to me was too responsive, like it expects finger style not pick. Just as Bob greatly influenced archtop design and sound away from the traditional thump to an acoustic/brighter world, his pup assists that transition. Looking at you, Eastman.
As I mention (and make everyone tired of hearing probably) I found after a years worth of testing there is no better ( to my ears) jazz pup than Lindy Fralin’s Modern PAF (on the darker side) or the Pure PAF on the punchier side. Ready? YMMV. IMNHO. ICMA. WTF do I really know, my ears were beaten to bits long ago!
Come to think about it, gee that applies to all us boomers lol.
jk
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I always thought the original pickups, which are super 58's (not Japanese ones through) are just fine. They have e nice tone and are set about right for jazz.
Ibanez usually know what they're doing.
The wiring and electronics in the AF120 do seem very cheap though.
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Pickups are like ice cream. Ya got your vanilla chocolate or chocolate chocolate chip cookie dough. Or partners. Find the one you love but dont go telling others that like strawberry their crazy AH.
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I have been playing a Korean narrow head af120 as my main guitar for absolutely yonks
My one’s stock neck pu is fine , (not amazing as it is a bit lacking in top
ie it could do with a bit more ’zing’)
but it’s a good sound ,
and to get a bit of shine on it
depending on the amp/room/vibe
I sometimes add a little bit of the
bridge pu (which is also stock)
wiring wise I replaced the unreliable
switch and jack socket with switchcraft items
(and am glad i did they were rubbish)
but the wiring loom and pots are stock
and are fine ....
Qu
what are the volume and tone pots responses like to the presumably stock
Korean super 58 bridge pu ?
If they are good that would be interesting ....
welcome to the club man
do you like the guitar generally
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Originally Posted by jim777
Actually, there are many available tapers. Linear is a 1:1 ratio between how far you open it and how much of its total resistance is in the circuit. The concept of an “audio” taper is simply that the above ratio is not linear. The most common audio taper is a logarithmic rise, and there’s also a “reverse audio” taper that’s an inverse log. Originally Posted by sgosnell
Audio tapers are named for the % of total resistance between the wiper and the signal end at the midpoint of rotation. The most common are audio 10 and audio 15, but some circuit designers specify other tapers. And if you really want or need to change how loud your guitar or amp gets as you turn the knob, you have multiple alternatives available. Pot tapers are identified by a letter. Here’s a chart of the most common ones:
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Why 'electrical' rotation on the chart? Cheers Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Actually, there are many available tapers. Linear is a 1:1 ratio between how far you open it and how much of its total resistance is in the circuit. The concept of an “audio” taper is simply that the above ratio is not linear. The most common audio taper is a logarithmic rise, and there’s also a “reverse audio” taper that’s an inverse log.
Audio tapers are named for the % of total resistance between the wiper and the signal end at the midpoint of rotation. The most common are audio 10 and audio 15, but some circuit designers specify other tapers. And if you really want or need to change how loud your guitar or amp gets as you turn the knob, you have multiple alternatives available. Pot tapers are identified by a letter. Here’s a chart of the most common ones:
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I copied the chart from a reference I already had. But I think the term refers to the fact that the % of rotation of the shaft in the pot is exactly equal to the % of the full resistance value of the pot that's in the circuit. So a 250k linear taper pot that's halfway between full on and full off is functioning as a 125k fixed resistor. Originally Posted by garybaldy
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For us 'plug in and play' guys the % of the physical rotation would be more beneficial. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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I'm pretty sure that is what the rotational axis actually means, as the other access is measuring resistance. That is usually what these charts are indicating. I don't know why they are referring to "electronic" rotation, it is a bit misleading. Originally Posted by garybaldy
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Thomann Online Guides Tapers and sense of rotation Potentiometers – Thomann UK Originally Posted by bluejaybill
I've just read this Thomann explanation. It seems a pot has no significant change in resistance for the first and last (approx.) 15% of its total rotation. So the 70% in the middle is called the electrical rotation. Interesting!
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...regarding "bass is boomy", for my ear this is always the case without an eq pedal.
(regardless of pu (factory epi, factory ibanez, upgraded Gibson 57, upgraded Benedetto and regardless of guitars Ibanez, Epi Eastman, D'Angelico (mic), and fegardless of amp (DV Mark, Bugera))
I know this is not the solution of your question, just a thought that "bass is boomy" may be a separate task to solve.
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That's the first I've heard of that! Originally Posted by garybaldy
Thomann Online Guides Tapers and sense of rotation Potentiometers – Thomann UK
I've just read this Thomann explanation. It seems a pot has no significant change in resistance for the first and last (approx.) 15% of its total rotation. So the 70% in the middle is called the electrical rotation. Interesting!
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It’s correct in concept but the actual amount of inactive rotation varies with design and quality. In most carbon pots, the wiper is only in contact with the resistive element for 70% of its full rotation. They have a “dead spot” at each end of rotation because the wiper is fairly wide and has to be in full contact with the ends of the resistive element and the tabs at the ends of its excursion. These are used in most lower end production guitars. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Better guitars use wire wound pots, which also have small inactive areas at the ends of rotation. But it’s not big enough to notice unless you try hard. I suspect most of us have no guitars in which the volume reaches maximum when the knob still has noticeable rotation left.
The really good wire wound pots have fine wire winding and a very thin contact ridge on the wiper, so there’s both tighter control over resistance and smaller inert end positions. And really good gain controls (not used much in guitars) are actually multipole rotary switches with discrete resistors at each position. These are the ones that are stepped and feel great. In these, 100% of their mechanical arc of rotation is active because the end positions are discrete.
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