Ibanez AF220 - Didn't know this existed.

[Arnesto]

i do know of one of the recent stars of jazz guitar is collaborating with ibanez for a namesake model which may make folks happy. Can't say who yet.

jk ?

[arnie65]

That's what I mean too. Are you sure the 175 pickup is in the 24th fret spot? I always assumed it was in the 22nd fret spot like on the Ibanez PM200. If you look at the originals it appears to be 175 pickup placement but later they made the neck 22 frets instead of 20 and the pickup stayed in the same spot but the fingerboard extended to all the way to the pickup.

Also, just noticed that this model is the biggest of the PM models with a 4 1/4" body depth, a huge departure from the previous PM models that range from 3 1/4" to 3 7/8". The 175 has a 3 1/4" which is how Pat designed his earlier models after. It is a bigger guitar, and probably great for solo chord-melody playing too, although I like to stick with the 3 1/4" body depth which feels more comfortable to me.



Cheers,
Arnie...

[jzucker]

He likes his prototype the most off course, but actually took his PM120 out with him for the orchestrion project tour .. A concert that I was fortunate to see when he toured with it 10 years ago.

Apparently it's good enough, cause if he didn't like it as such he probably wouldn't have used it for hours every night for a long tour like that ... It off course was modded to be used as a trigger for all his toys, but plenty of regular guitar playing in that concert too.

the two times I saw him, the first time he had a black pm100, the second time a pm2aa. I think he likes the fact that they are rugged but he seems to be continually dissatisfied with them and now is using something else...

[jim777]

the two times I saw him, the first time he had a black pm100, the second time a pm2aa. I think he likes the fact that they are rugged but he seems to be continually dissatisfied with them and now is using something else...

Well, you know, some guys (not pointing fingers here) go through guitars like other guys go through t-shirts

[jazzkritter]

Hey all just have a minute on my way to the vultures at the NIH to grab more of what bloods left.
Source said a small run of the PM25s CC were made and all went instantly within Japan. No word until the 2022 catalog comes out as to if and what is added to any Signature lines. No word of another jazz artist, but if we have trouble learning which “Super58”
is which from them, well they some tight lipped cats!

OK I said and proved this before, but i repeat myself constantly at home so hey just treating you like i treat my family lol.
Ibanez catalog quotes the depth of most hollow bodies as total measure from the TOP OF THE BRIDGE to the back. Heres the PM200 depth, as you see not 4.5” at all. Even measuring the rear arch it only adds maybe a bit more thank 1/4”.
So no, neither the PM200 nor the LGB300 in reality are 4 1/2” deep. Nope). I guess its a measure for case size? Misstating to sound bigger than you are? Lol! Geez go for 9”)

back later. jk

[jzucker]

Yeah ... They never where his first choice, but I still like mine tbh. The PM100 just sounds great and while it as you say perhaps feedbacks slightly too easily it sure sounds great (at least with the Benedetto A6 a previous owner put into it)

The PM120 isn't as great sounding .. I find the Silent 57 slightly bland, but is one of the most comfortable guitars out there ... I always wondered what a different set of pups could do, but can't be arsed to change them myself and never been curious enough to pay a luthier to do it. Oh well

I thought the guitar was super dark and I put classic 57s in mine. Hardly changed a thing! Before I did the pickup swap, I called ibanez and they told me that maple is just a dark wood! lol...Then again, based on recent experience, I'm starting to see how horrible their support and service is.

[jzucker]

OK, thanks .. That is actually good to know. Yeah, it is dark, but in many way that is the PM sound. Last time I saw him live his Slaman had one of the darkest guitar tones I've heard ever.

Still I'm not a fan of that either, so if I ever get around to experimenting, I'll try a set of pups that is known to be slightly brighter from the get go.

what I "discovered" was that certain guitars just have their sound. So if you take something like an L5-S (solidbody) which is super bright and try putting super dark pickups in it, or take a PM120 and put super bright pickups in it, you just end up with a hot mess. IMO, it's better to just augment the sound of the existing guitar because - and this is just personal theory/opinion - otherwise you cancel out the best attributes of the instrument. So yeah, metheny loves a dark guitar sound. Listen to question and answer where his 175 with the tone control rolled down has become "a classic". So if you buy a PM-120, maybe expect it to be a dark guitar and live with it!

The kreisberg clip with the PM200 sounds pretty bright though. I never played one of those but it's not a dark sound with new roundwounds as he demonstrated...

[jzucker]

I think when they say 4.5, they are talking about the thickest part of the arch

Hey all just have a minute on my way to the vultures at the NIH to grab more of what bloods left.
Source said a small run of the PM25s CC were made and all went instantly within Japan. No word until the 2022 catalog comes out as to if and what is added to any Signature lines. No word of another jazz artist, but if we have trouble learning which “Super58”
is which from them, well they some tight lipped cats!

OK I said and proved this before, but i repeat myself constantly at home so hey just treating you like i treat my family lol.
Ibanez catalog quotes the depth of most hollow bodies as total measure from the TOP OF THE BRIDGE to the back. Heres the PM200 depth, as you see not 4.5” at all. Even measuring the rear arch it only adds maybe a bit more thank 1/4”.
So no, neither the PM200 nor the LGB300 in reality are 4 1/2” deep. Nope). I guess its a measure for case size? Misstating to sound bigger than you are? Lol! Geez go for 9”)

back later. jk

[jzucker]

Oh .. So that is what happened and why the PM25th suddenly disappeared from the Ibanez homepage.

Oh well .. If they ever decide to make a non 25th anniversary MIJ version of a CC equipped PM then I'm interested

for some reason, that sound doesn't appeal to me on that guitar. I saw a concert of him on youtube using a CC equipped instrument and disliked the sound. I like it when others use it though.

[jzucker]

Yeah, but I suspect he has the tone knob all the way down.


But with regards to new pups in the PM120 ... Don't worry I'm not going to put a Gibson Dirty Fingers or similar in it .. lol ... I'm always going to go for a PAF type pups, but might go for one labelled "modern" as opposed to "classic" or similar

Cheers Jack!

maybe the low wind lollars or something similar would sound good in there, or perhaps a P90 type pickup. I was going to recommend mojotone pickups but when I checked their page, most of the good ones are out of stock and their prices now rival the boutique brands!

[jazzkritter]

I checked the thickest part of the arch still not 4.5”.
So Jack now you have to go get your own and measure))). Cheaper than a Campy lol.

Don’t aim too much at Ibanez with them thinking all maple is a warm guitar. I doubt they ever play any all Maple Taylors; you need sunglasses to play those bright suckers! When i got the PM and mentioned here it was bright someone here (big name!) told me the same… all maple guitars are the warmest. Um, yea. I gotta go back and find that quite

When I first got mine I found it way too bright with its Silent 58 from the factory. I went through DeMarzio 36th Annv, Benedetto A6, a Super 58 off my AF, borrowed a Lollar Imperial, and of course my beloved Fralin Modern PAF. Which stayed on. But now I’m trying a Fralin Pure PAF which is more a ‘true’ copy of a 50’s PAF. Talked it through with Lindy Fralin, who by the way is an awesome dude! Im going to leave it on a while, to get to know it better, as its a interesting blend of a warm sound with a strong initial response. (The LGB300 has the Modern PAF.) On the PM200 the Pure sounds pretty good, plays nice. We shall see. The PM200 is a seriously good guitar, very enjoyable to play, comfy, i like it a lot, glad i found it.

Hey if anyone in NoVa or DC wants to come over and video an example send me a PM. My fingers are still shaking too much for public consumption. We move the 5th to Alexandria so would have to be after that as we are neck deep in boxes!

[arnie65]

The PM120 was not close to a 175 body depth. I'm not convinced pat likes his namesake guitars. He seems to prefer his prototype or his custom guitar with the CC Pickup. I hear they are making a new metheny guitar now, possibly with the CC Pickup. I have to admit the clips I've heard of him playing the CC pickup equipped guitar didn't do much for me. I wish Ibanez would just make a 2 pickup 175-influenced instrument. I've tried their lawsuit 175s and IMO, they missed the mark. They have the capability to do it right but choose not to - probably because they don't see a market for it.

I do know of one of the recent stars of jazz guitar is collaborating with ibanez for a namesake model which may make folks happy. Can't say who yet.

The PM120 was 3 1/4" in depth, that's a little less than 1/4" in difference, not a whole lot in my opinion. Pat's original Ibanez guitar (not a PM model) from Ibanez is 2 3/4" in depth. As I mentioned, his sound has evolved somewhat, the new PM model with the CC pickup sounds very different than any of the PM models, or even his original model. Not really my cup of tea, I've heard the list price tag when it comes out in the US next year will be $5,000. I'm quite happy with my modded (1984) FG100.


Cheers,
Arnie..

[jzucker]

not sure about those specs. I owned a pm120 and 175 at the same time and the 175 was WAY thicker. Much deeper at the rims and a bigger arch.

[jzucker]

@arnie65 you can clearly see in this video it's nowhere close to a 175 in depth at the edges. I think it's closer to 2.75, about the thickness of a GB10

[jazzkritter]

Ibanez list and selling tend to be pretty different. (at least they have been before the increase announcement they’ve recently made. That announcement (to dealers) says nothing ‘normal’ till 2023. You can find it at Rich Harris’ Ibanezrules.com.)

The LGB300 is listed at 6133$. MAP is 4599$. IF (apparently a big IF) you can find a new one they float around the high 3000$.
So that 5000 number for the PM25 says to me its either a soft list like the LGB, or they don’t expect to make many given the supply restraints so they can throttle demand with price. (Again, reference the dealer announcement.). Economics 101. I hated it

My source is not at all convinced we will see the 25. Keeps saying wait for the 2022 price list, there the truth shall lie. Or the dragons!
Question is…. Whens that pesky price list showing up?

jk; up to the neck in wrapping paper)

Hard nights for the kritter. 30 years of playing Christmas services which my accident took away long ago. Christmas music is a gift to organists. I miss it.

[arnie65]

@arnie65 you can clearly see in this video it's nowhere close to a 175 in depth at the edges. I think it's closer to 2.75, about the thickness of a GB10

I've got them from the Ibanez website, maybe they are wrong...

Arnie..

[jzucker]

they are clearly wrong. Look at the cover image of the video I posted. You can see that the pm120 is a very narrow depth like a gb10

[Gabor]

I dont like the neck pickup placement in the modern artcores

175 is not considered modern. (1949) and has the very same placement of the neck pickup.

[arnie65]

After listening to clips of all PM models for years and playing most of them, (IMO) I think the PM120 represents Pat's tone the best.. I really don't care for the double cutaway shape, but the tone is heaven...




Arnie.

[jzucker]

After listening to clips of all PM models for years and playing most of them, (IMO) I think the PM120 represents Pat's tone the best.. I really don't care for the double cutaway shape, but the tone is heaven...
Arnie.

it's all so subjective. I think the pm100 sounds more like pat than the 120 and anecdotally it seems that the 120 was the guitar that Pat used the least in various concert footage I've seen. I happen to love the shape. Very art deco and i'm glad one manufacturer has the courage to make an archtop that doesn't like like every other archtop made since 1930

[arnie65]

Just to make sure it's not a typo ... You like the thinner two pickup PM120 over the more 175s style one pickup PM100?

You're right! I meant the PM100...


Cheers,
Arnie...

[arnie65]

it's all so subjective. I think the pm100 sounds more like pat than the 120 and anecdotally it seems that the 120 was the guitar that Pat used the least in various concert footage I've seen. I happen to love the shape. Very art deco and i'm glad one manufacturer has the courage to make an archtop that doesn't like like every other archtop made since 1930

Correction, I meant the PM100...




Arnie...

[Irwin1993]

Is this a fair assumption from whats been written so far? The concesus is that the pickup placement on the af220(guitar on the OP) is too far towards the middle of the body for most peoples tastes?

[jzucker]

Is this a fair assumption from whats been written so far? The concesus is that the pickup placement on the af220(guitar on the OP) is too far towards the middle of the body for most peoples tastes?

no, not the consensus. I think one person said that.