Ibanez Lawsuits

[tomvwash]

I've been watching this guitar for a few days now. It's labeled as a hybrid by this shop, but these Lawsuits had definitive names, right, FA700, FA300, etc...just inquired with the seller. I've never played one of these, any opinions are welcome.

Vintage 1976 Ibanez L-5CESN - Killer "lawsuit era" Sugihara | Reverb

[Jimmy blue note]

They had Johnny Smith knock offs, and L-5 knock offs which, as far as I know have always been known as Ibanez Johnny Smith, etc. Try it out first. That's not a small amount of pocket change and though they have their own caché among lawsuit Ibanez collectors, they aren't the outstanding buys they were at the time (when Gibsons were beyond the reach of many and these were the only things around).
I had an Ibanez Johnny Smith and it was HEAVY and chunky. The neck was big and it was quite a beast, and it sounded ok but ...meh.
For 3 grand, make sure it's what you're really looking for. Personally I find the more modern JP20 a really exceptional Ibanez for half the price on the used market and a fine example of what Ibanez was turning out during their early 80's peak period.

Try the L-5 if you can and know what you're getting. Good luck.

[tomvwash]

They had Johnny Smith knock offs, and L-5 knock offs which, as far as I know have always been known as Ibanez Johnny Smith, etc. Try it out first. That's not a small amount of pocket change and though they have their own caché among lawsuit Ibanez collectors, they aren't the outstanding buys they were at the time (when Gibsons were beyond the reach of many and these were the only things around).
I had an Ibanez Johnny Smith and it was HEAVY and chunky. The neck was big and it was quite a beast, and it sounded ok but ...meh.
For 3 grand, make sure it's what you're really looking for. Personally I find the more modern JP20 a really exceptional Ibanez for half the price on the used market and a fine example of what Ibanez was turning out during their early 80's peak period.

Try the L-5 if you can and know what you're getting. Good luck.

Well put. Thank you for those comments.

[wintermoon]

I wouldn't buy a thing from this seller.
They specialize in stripping vintage guitars of their parts and selling them w modern replacements, and then selling the parts for big $.
The only reason this guitar is pretty intact is because the parts aren't that valuable and they can maximize their $ by leaving them as is.
Free country and all, but I'm not a fan of their business practices, and 4k is on the high side for one of these anyway.

[Crm114]

That’s not really an lawsuit Guitar, I hate it when sellers claim that. I say that simply because the headstock has the revised shape and the inlay in the headstock is what is called the spider.

It’s likely a laminated body they’re very well-made the pick ups are very nice and if you want to play on stage and in a loud environment then the guitar would be very good because it’s not as prone to feedback as a curved top and back guitar.

sugihata is a highly regarded builder but that’s way too pricey by at least $1000 if not 1500

For what the seller is asking you can find a really lovely heritage golden eagle that’s a carved top and back

[tomvwash]

I wouldn't buy a thing from this seller.
They specialize in stripping vintage guitars of their parts and selling them w modern replacements, and then selling the parts for big $.
The only reason this guitar is pretty intact is because the parts aren't that valuable and they can maximize their $ by leaving them as is.
Free country and all, but I'm not a fan of their business practices, and 4k is on the high side for one of these anyway.

Priceless advice. The less experienced here are fortunate to get the right context on this forum. Thank you.

[Dutchbopper]

I've been watching this guitar for a few days now. It's labeled as a hybrid by this shop, but these Lawsuits had definitive names, right, FA700, FA300, etc...just inquired with the seller. I've never played one of these, any opinions are welcome. Vintage 1976 Ibanez L-5CESN - Killer "lawsuit era" Sugihara | Reverb

Way too expensive. I played one of these once and though it was a reasonable guitar it had nothing to do with a real L5. For, it's a laminate guitar and does not sound like an L5 at all. You always see the sales rep "golden age Ibanez laswsuit Gibson killer" bla bla with instruments like that but I used to own an Ibanez Johnny Smith that sounded pretty tinny. It had a floater on a laminate top (so nothing like a real Johnny Smith) and though it was a very pretty guitar the sound was not what I liked so I sold it.

Later I got an original Ibanez model, an FG 100, which was a much, much better guitar for way less money. Still have it next to my Gibsons.

For that money get a Gibson 175 or Tal Farlow. Do not believe the hype.

DB

[Crm114]

As a follow up I’ve owned a number of the Ibanez copies - I owned two different Byrdland copies and a Johnny Smith copy

The Johnny Smith was a double pick up and it had the original true lawsuit headstock shape but I only paid $1500 for it

I repeat my referral and preference for heritage golden eagles. in fact there are a number of them in our for sale section here. Forum member Marty Grass has a number of heritage that he may not have listed that might be available that would definitely float your boat

Best of luck in your search for the ideal arch top whatever brand that ends up being

BigMike

[yebdox]

I had 2 different single pickup Ibanez Johnny Smiths, both pretty, but heavy. The best tone I’ve ever heard on them is from those videos of Benson with McCoy…. Mine never sounded like that.

I have an L5, now, no comparison, as well as a 175 vos, GB10, and Sadowsky JH… the latter 3 can be had in that neighborhood price range and are all better values with better tone.

Pretty, but like a knockoff Porsche replica with a VW engine.

[Crm114]

If you want something that’s very L5-ish and don’t mind spending a tiny bit more money than $4000 you can learn the guitar of your dreams and that would be a Mark Campellone there are a number of them for sale on Reverb and they are truly wonderful ion five Campellone Specials, they out L5 an L5, truly very worthy of your consideration

BigMike

[jim777]

That looks to me like a model 2464. Now, I'm a big fan of Ibanez, but as for that being an example of "their scrupulous faithfulness to the original", then I would say no It might look like an L5, and Suguhara-san made some wonderful guitars (my FA-100 being one of them) but that's not an L5. As others have said if I had 4 grand to spend on another guitar I wouldn't look at this one at that price (and probably not even half that) and most of my guitars are Ibbys. You could get one of those recent Gibson ES-275s for less than that if you wanted 2 humbuckers and a laminate top. OR go Heritage, as Mike suggested, either way you'd do better than that 2464.

[wintermoon]

That looks to me like a model 2464. Now, I'm a big fan of Ibanez, but as for that being an example of "their scrupulous faithfulness to the original", then I would say no It might look like an L5, and Suguhara-san made some wonderful guitars (my FA-100 being one of them) but that's not an L5. As others have said if I had 4 grand to spend on another guitar I wouldn't look at this one at that price (and probably not even half that) and most of my guitars are Ibbys. You could get one of those recent Gibson ES-275s for less than that if you wanted 2 humbuckers and a laminate top. OR go Heritage, as Mike suggested, either way you'd do better than that 2464.

The 2464 is a laminate Byrdland copy
This is a 2460 laminate L-5 copy

[Stringswinger]

Back in the 70's, I had a made in Japan lawsuit SG. A few years later, I got the real thing. No comparison. Ain't nothing like the real thing baby!

[Crm114]

Russell Malone could sure swing on an Ibanez

[Crm114]

Where Ibanez really started to shine was right after this era 1978 and beyond Ibanez started making their own unique models: the GB10 the GB20 the AS200, the AM200
And the AR300 quickly come to mind

[Stringswinger]

Russell Malone could sure swing on an Ibanez

Russell Malone could swing on a cigar box with rubber bands. He will probably sound better on that Ibanez than anyone here could on a genuine D'Aquisto.

[lawson-stone]

Caution point: the main result of the lawsuit was the changing of the headstock from the "open book" (which Gibson trademarked) to something else. I think (correction welcome!) that a "real" lawsuit guitar will have the Gibson-like headstock. This one doesn't have it.

Also, the neck is a heel-splice and not the laminated neck. The really top notch copies have the 5 piece laminated neck.

Not a $4000 guitar by any stretch of the imagination.

[tomvwash]

That looks to me like a model 2464. Now, I'm a big fan of Ibanez, but as for that being an example of "their scrupulous faithfulness to the original", then I would say no It might look like an L5, and Suguhara-san made some wonderful guitars (my FA-100 being one of them) but that's not an L5. As others have said if I had 4 grand to spend on another guitar I wouldn't look at this one at that price (and probably not even half that) and most of my guitars are Ibbys. You could get one of those recent Gibson ES-275s for less than that if you wanted 2 humbuckers and a laminate top. OR go Heritage, as Mike suggested, either way you'd do better than that 2464.

The inside label is "lost." Go figure.

[John A.]

Caution point: the main result of the lawsuit was the changing of the headstock from the "open book" (which Gibson trademarked) to something else. I think (correction welcome!) that a "real" lawsuit guitar will have the Gibson-like headstock. This one doesn't have it.

Also, the neck is a heel-splice and not the laminated neck. The really top notch copies have the 5 piece laminated neck.

Not a $4000 guitar by any stretch of the imagination.

Correct-a-mundo! The lawsuit was strictly about the headstock design, for both Fender and Gibson. Many of the lawsuit guitars are bolt-on neck Les Paul copies that are pretty crappy.

[citizenk74]

Russell Malone could sure swing on an Ibanez

Russell Malone could swing on a cigar box. An incredible musician whose hard work and deep study has produced a ton of first-rate jazz music as played on the guitar. One of my personal faves that I first heard on Bob Parlocha's program.

[Archie]

I would imagine as others have stated that this is a 2460. You could ask the seller to remove a pup if you really wanted to know.

This guitar is over priced but in very good condition and will likely sell to a collector, who's already got a vintage correct case waiting.

Playability should be very good, sound plugged in should be very good, vintage JP Mojo is an 8/10. Otherwise it will likely be heavy and dark sounding. The tops are quite thick and well braced. Ibanez laminated tops weren't great in this period. I once turned down an Ibanez Johnny Smith for £500. Not Ibanez's finest moment, the laminated top was awful.
The necks however are very good (imo), very stable and they can be set up well. Usually better than the Gibson it imitates (to some degree).

I wouldn't buy one personally because I've passed my vintage JP phase somewhat and I've had two FA800's, so why bother?
I've also now got better guitars like a Campellone or even a GB200. Plus you can buy an Aria PE or L1000 for around $2000? and it's essentially the same. The Aria maybe a touch heavier.

The condition of that guitar is what allows the price to be outrageous, although pictures tell a thousand lies, or hide a thousand truths, whatever way you like to put it.

Someone in the UK is selling an SB 2460 which I could likely get you for $2000 plus shipping and a drink if you really NEED one.

1977 IBANEZ 2460 BS Vintage Archtop MIJ w/Flight Case | eBay

[floatingpickup]

I wouldn't buy a thing from this seller.
They specialize in stripping vintage guitars of their parts and selling them w modern replacements, and then selling the parts for big $.
The only reason this guitar is pretty intact is because the parts aren't that valuable and they can maximize their $ by leaving them as is.
Free country and all, but I'm not a fan of their business practices, and 4k is on the high side for one of these anyway.

I have also observed that this seller routinely strips (destroys) vintage guitars. Then, they sell the guitars with modern replacement parts while they flip the original parts for high prices. I think what they are doing is horrible. I have never so much as switched a guitar case because I would feel guilty separating anything original. Every time someone does this, it’s one less original vintage piece that will ever exist again. I couldn’t support what they are doing by giving them my business.
Keith

[jzucker]

Agreed 100%. I have owned and played a bunch of the lawsuit guitars. 175 copies, L5 copies, Johnny Smith copies. None were anything special IMO. The 175 copy didn't have any of the vibe of a real 175 and neither did the others. At one point, the prices were really low on these so at least they were cheap but now the copies are selling for $2000USD and higher it seems.

Way too expensive. I played one of these once and though it was a reasonable guitar it had nothing to do with a real L5. For, it's a laminate guitar and does not sound like an L5 at all. You always see the sales rep "golden age Ibanez laswsuit Gibson killer" bla bla with instruments like that but I used to own an Ibanez Johnny Smith that sounded pretty tinny. It had a floater on a laminate top (so nothing like a real Johnny Smith) and though it was a very pretty guitar the sound was not what I liked so I sold it.

Later I got an original Ibanez model, an FG 100, which was a much, much better guitar for way less money. Still have it next to my Gibsons.

For that money get a Gibson 175 or Tal Farlow. Do not believe the hype.

DB

[Jimmy blue note]

Where Ibanez really started to shine was right after this era 1978 and beyond Ibanez started making their own unique models: the GB10 the GB20 the AS200, the AM200
And the AR300 quickly come to mind

To mention as a side digression, Hoshino really got their act together and this golden age when Fujigen and Ibanez were in many ways inseparable. The AS100, the smaller bodied AM series that became the model for the Gibson 339... this was the period when the timeless instruments of Ibanez had their origin and they actively sought out endorsers to carry their name into history. They were also CHEAP compared to the American counterparts and as many US brands were on the decline, Gibsons with material, construction and quality control issues, Ibanez offered their original and endorsers' models for a quarter of the price. And they were built to last.
This is before the late 80's when Hoshino began to contract factories from outside of Japan.

Much of the caché of lawsuit came from the publicity of cheap knockoffs when there were no imitations to be had. They were the first 'credible' superficially passable option.
Next came the much deserved golden age Fujigen originals.
Then we get the good quality affordable and respectable, but mass market corner-cut instruments we know today. Fujigen premier and endorser models carry on the spirit and craft of the golden age, but there are options for every pocketbook.
As to the "Vintage Lawsuit treasures", they offer nothing for a serious player and their 'dirt cheap' selling point is a long gone forgotten memory. Strictly for the collectors of such.
There are people who collect knock off rolexes. And their are those who would pay more for a Rolex Chinese knock-off than an Omega or a Tag Heuer. That's a niche for the so inclined. Don't get pulled in to that collectors mentality if you're looking for an instrument as a player.

[Archie]

To mention as a side digression, Hoshino really got their act together and this golden age when Fujigen and Ibanez were in many ways inseparable. The AS100, the smaller bodied AM series that became the model for the Gibson 339... this was the period when the timeless instruments of Ibanez had their origin and they actively sought out endorsers to carry their name into history. They were also CHEAP compared to the American counterparts and as many US brands were on the decline, Gibsons with material, construction and quality control issues, Ibanez offered their original and endorsers' models for a quarter of the price. And they were built to last.
This is before the late 80's when Hoshino began to contract factories from outside of Japan.

Much of the caché of lawsuit came from the publicity of cheap knockoffs when there were no imitations to be had. They were the first 'credible' superficially passable option.
Next came the much deserved golden age Fujigen originals.
Then we get the good quality affordable and respectable, but mass market corner-cut instruments we know today. Fujigen premier and endorser models carry on the spirit and craft of the golden age, but there are options for every pocketbook.
As to the "Vintage Lawsuit treasures", they offer nothing for a serious player and their 'dirt cheap' selling point is a long gone forgotten memory. Strictly for the collectors of such.
There are people who collect knock off rolexes. And their are those who would pay more for a Rolex Chinese knock-off than an Omega or a Tag Heuer. That's a niche for the so inclined. Don't get pulled in to that collectors mentality if you're looking for an instrument as a player.

I think you’re being a little unfair. A Gibson es175 is hardly a Rolex and the 23355 is just as well made and often plays better.