New vs. used guitar or amp

[Phil59]

I can understand why you would buy a new high-end guitar, such as a Campellone, if that's what you really want and it's hard or impossible to buy used at the same price as new. And you might be a collector as opposed to primarily a player. Otherwise it seems to me that you usually can get a better deal buying used. It's the same with amps, as far as I can tell. Buying new is no guarantee of satisfaction, as we have heard many times. Of course, it's best to be able to actually play the guitar or amp ahead of time. But for many, that is not always possible for many reasons. What do you think?

[wintermoon]

I've purchased a few custom made archtops over the years that I wouldn't have been able to buy used, though none in the last 20 yrs. Generally I almost always buy used/vintage.

[Gitterbug]

Generally, one shouldn't generalize... Both new and used come with risks. A used premium guitar is less risky, if you know its provenance, can properly try it out, or, better still, have it evaluated by a pro luthier. Its tonal qualities will have matured. Old tube amps may suffer from many symptoms, audible or hidden; both diagnostics and cure may be costly. Otoh, they are serviceable, even if there's rust inside. Solid state amps may die suddenly, yet more likely during warranty period than mid-career. Old ones are sometimes impossible or uneconomical to repair. I would simply reserve serious money for instruments and regard amps a my servants, not investments or mythical objects of worship. Plus, the more people mutilate the signal with various space-age effects, the less sense it makes to have a valuable vintage object at either end of the signal chain.

I recently commended the apparent success of a first-rank maker of Class D amps to a company rep. He responded: "Yeah, but we're mainly addressing gigging musicians, a narrow slice of the total market." "We're in a fashion industry," he added. Be that as it may, to me pros and active giggers represent the leading edge.

[Oldjock]

I have a personal rule which has bode me well over the years, regardless of the product. If the used product is 50% of the cost of new, then I will consider it. During the past few years, the used prices have risen in some cases to north of 75%. That takes me out of the game. That being said, prices are what they are because people are paying. Just not me.

[FredH]

Over the years, I purchased a couple of new guitars that rarely show up on the used market. But most of my gear is vintage/used. New instruments don't have the same tone, feel and character as a used/vintage one.

[AllanAllen]

I have a personal rule which has bode me well over the years, regardless of the product. If the used product is 50% of the cost of new, then I will consider it. During the past few years, the used prices have risen in some cases to north of 75%. That takes me out of the game. That being said, prices are what they are because people are paying. Just not me.

Things aren't "used" anymore, they are "out of production collectables."

[6v6ster]

I almost only buy used. With guitars older and played in tends to sound better. And especially with archtops, those things sometimes need a decade or so to loosen up the top.

[citizenk74]

I have bought new and I have bought "broken in." A warranty is a good thing to have, and should not be discounted. It's a roll of the dice anytime you buy something previously owned. I've spent substantial sums repairing, restoring, and refurbishing guitars and amps. I don't regret a nickel of it. I should mention I am of the "good tube amps are a class of musical instruments, not merely sound reinforcement" school of thought. Whether or not an audience can hear or feel a difference is immaterial to me; I can, or think I can, and that is enough for me. I pays my money, and I takes my choice.

[st.bede]

I have purchased plenty of both new and used. For me, the best thing about getting a new guitar, is knowing that every dent and scratch, is from my playing. However, I feel completely different about my car.

[Marinero]

A quality, luthier-built Classical Guitar starts at $4-5K new. That same guitar after the wannabe sells it in a few years goes for $1800-$2500 with a few very minor scratches/dents(if any) and is a serious, lifetime instrument. I bought my Brune' Classical ,used, over 20 years ago for $2300 and was essentially new. It's increased in value 60% and is still a highly regarded instrument. A vintage Gibson is, in a sense, a irreplaceable instrument and can be bought for about the same, or less, as a quality new instrument but with tonewoods that have seasoned for 40-60 years--a serious element in its tonal quality for some discerning musicians. I always shop used unless what I want can only be purchased new. However, most EG's ,regardless of an instruments quality, destroy whatever character there is in the instrument once they plug it in . . . but that's another story.
Marinero

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Buying new is no guarantee of satisfaction

True dat. But...............it all comes down to a matter of probabilities, whether the buyer realizes it or not. It's a complex series of odds, and you have to balance the net likelihoods of additional cost, difficulty reselling, ability to repair or replace etc against your own value scale. A guarantee is just the knowledge that there is a 100% likelihood you'll only be out of pocket for whatever the guarantee says you'll owe in the event of trouble. The big question is whether a realistic assessment of your risks and potential costs makes it likely that you'll be happy with the purchase even if it goes south.

I bought a 2000 BMW Z3 coupe because I was absolutely in love with it. I loved the way it looked. I loved the way it drove. I loved the way it felt when I sat in it. On the other hand, I hated the fact that it required 13 warranty visits in the first 18 months. I hated the fact that every dashboard warning light would suddenly go on, the fact that the right rear sway bar mounting fell off during a pleasure trip with my wife, the fact that it needed a new transmission at about 12,000 miles etc. The probability that any of these things would happen was low, and the probabiilty that they'd all happen was close to zero. But they all happened, and more. Truth be told, I loved that car so much that I took it all in stride. And after the first 18 months, Gretel (her name from birth) never gave me a problem again. But when her warranty was up, I dropped her like a hot potato because I knew she was likely to bite me again and I knew that bite would hurt.

Buying anything used is a crap shoot unless you know the real reason it was for sale. In my experience, many used items are for sale because they did something that made the owner fear a costly failure and repair or replacement. If the problem is well known and documented, the risk is even greater. I've had 5 (count 'em - five!) Gallien-Kruegers fail on me in 25 years (4 MB-150s and a 250). I bought them all used, and I have no one to blame but myself. There were many reports of power supplies going south after a few years back in the 1990s, so there were many used GKs on the market. When the first one failed, I sent it to them for repair and paid something like $125. It blew again one month after the repair warranty expired - and they charged me another $125. I sold it and bought another, which went up in smoke during a recording session at Hard Hat Studios. #3 went up in smoke at a blues gig at Philly's long gone and lamented South Street Blues. The last 2 I got for peanuts and used for a few months each before they also failed. But I got my money's worth because they were light, cheap, powerful amps that sounded good - I dragged them to terrible dives with no concern for them at all, and they reciprocated. I hated them and they obviously hated me - but they did a job for me.

Only you can balance the cost and availability of satisfactory substitutes against the known failure rate of whatever you're buying. Factor in the availability of parts and repair, the size of the potential resale market, and the joy simply having it will give you. I still have a few pieces I bought used many years ago, and I do not regret having bought many of the guitars and amps that made my life miserable until I got rid of them. Figure out what's most important to you and work from there - are you most upset at being inconvenienced? at having to put out more money to make it right? at knowing you could have bought a new one for 15% more?

[John A.]

In theory, I prefer used guitars because of value, and because I figure used guitars have stabilized and been sorted out (as opposed to not knowing what might go wrong with a new guitar). But in truth I've bought used and new 50/50, and it has come down to just liking each guitar I've bought independent of the new/used question.

With amps, I've bought used more often than new, mainly because I Iike old tube amps. The ss/modeling amps I've bought were new, however. I've had good luck with getting vintage amps cheap in past, but those days are probably over.

[Marinero]

True dat. But...............it all comes down to a matter of probabilities, whether the buyer realizes it or not. It's a complex series of odds, and you have to balance the net likelihoods of additional cost, difficulty reselling, ability to repair or replace etc against your own value scale. A guarantee is just the knowledge that there is a 100% likelihood you'll only be out of pocket for whatever the guarantee says you'll owe in the event of trouble. The big question is whether a realistic assessment of your risks and potential costs makes it likely that you'll be happy with the purchase even if it goes south.

I bought a 2000 BMW Z3 coupe because I was absolutely in love with it. I loved the way it looked. I loved the way it drove. I loved the way it felt when I sat in it. On the other hand, I hated the fact that it required 13 warranty visits in the first 18 months. I hated the fact that every dashboard warning light would suddenly go on, the fact that the right rear sway bar mounting fell off during a pleasure trip with my wife, the fact that it needed a new transmission at about 12,000 miles etc. The probability that any of these things would happen was low, and the probabiilty that they'd all happen was close to zero. But they all happened, and more. Truth be told, I loved that car so much that I took it all in stride. And after the first 18 months, Gretel (her name from birth) never gave me a problem again. But when her warranty was up, I dropped her like a hot potato because I knew she was likely to bite me again and I knew that bite would hurt.

Buying anything used is a crap shoot unless you know the real reason it was for sale. In my experience, many used items are for sale because they did something that made the owner fear a costly failure and repair or replacement. If the problem is well known and documented, the risk is even greater. I've had 5 (count 'em - five!) Gallien-Kruegers fail on me in 25 years (4 MB-150s and a 250). I bought them all used, and I have no one to blame but myself. There were many reports of power supplies going south after a few years back in the 1990s, so there were many used GKs on the market. When the first one failed, I sent it to them for repair and paid something like $125. It blew again one month after the repair warranty expired - and they charged me another $125. I sold it and bought another, which went up in smoke during a recording session at Hard Hat Studios. #3 went up in smoke at a blues gig at Philly's long gone and lamented South Street Blues. The last 2 I got for peanuts and used for a few months each before they also failed. But I got my money's worth because they were light, cheap, powerful amps that sounded good - I dragged them to terrible dives with no concern for them at all, and they reciprocated. I hated them and they obviously hated me - but they did a job for me.

Only you can balance the cost and availability of satisfactory substitutes against the known failure rate of whatever you're buying. Factor in the availability of parts and repair, the size of the potential resale market, and the joy simply having it will give you. I still have a few pieces I bought used many years ago, and I do not regret having bought many of the guitars and amps that made my life miserable until I got rid of them. Figure out what's most important to you and work from there - are you most upset at being inconvenienced? at having to put out more money to make it right? at knowing you could have bought a new one for 15% more?

Hi, N,
Some bad deals! However, did you have the BMW checked out by a certified European mechanic or dealership before purchase--average cost $130-150? If you did, your likelihood of serious issues would have been much lower. However, to your favor, BMW's are very "tweaky" electrically(sensors) and irrespective of models its always been their problem(and Audi's) since the "sensor" revolution in engines. Now, speaking of musical instruments, the same deal applies. If you have a quality luthier inspect and certify a used guitar before purchase, the chance of buying a bad/marginal instrument is practically 0%. I own three luthier built CG's- Brune(used), LoPrinzi(new), and Esteve(new-Spain). If I wanted to buy a used guitar, I would take it to their shops and be totally confident with their decision/report. This is also possible with a JG as there are many fine luthiers who build and repair these guitars. So, if money is no option, buy new. However, many developing artists first serious instruments were purchased used and got them in the game sooner without having to wait for funds. Also, cost-conscious musicians across the board who want to play a serious instrument sooner than later benefit greatly. Buying used is a mindset.
Marinero

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Hi, N,
Some bad deals! However, did you have the BMW checked out by a certified European mechanic or dealership before purchase--average cost $130-150?

I bought it new.

I’m a lifelong SCCA racer and have built or restored and maintained my own cars for 60 years (I started on a ratty MG-TD when I was 15). So I have some familiarity with automotive issues. That car was just a gorgeous pile of unlikely failures………but I loved it anyway, for some odd reason. I actually made a U turn across a 6 lane road when I spotted it at the dealer while driving past, to be sure no one else bought it while I was waiting for the left turn light to go green. I’d wanted a Z3 coupe since they were announced, and fewer than 1000 came to the US.

As they say, “be careful what you wish for”!

[Marinero]

I bought it new.

I’m a lifelong SCCA racer and have built or restored and maintained my own cars for 60 years (I started on a ratty MG-TD when I was 15). So I have some familiarity with automotive issues. That car was just a gorgeous pile of unlikely failures………but I loved it anyway, for some odd reason. I actually made a U turn across a 6 lane road when I spotted it at the dealer while driving past, to be sure no one else bought it while I was waiting for the left turn light to go green. I’d wanted a Z3 coupe since they were announced, and fewer than 1000 came to the US.

As they say, “be careful what you wish for”!

Very pretty car, N, but BMW's are very "tweaky" cars as I said earlier. I wish I had my old '66 MGB convertible, today. Never had a problem with the vehicle.
Marinero

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Very pretty car, N, but BMW's are very "tweaky" cars as I said earlier. I wish I had my old '66 MGB convertible, today. Never had a problem with the vehicle.
Marinero

Between my sons, my wife, and me, we've had 4 Bimmers starting with a '74 Tii and including my Z3C, an M3 and an M2. Apart from the Z3's troubles, we've not had a bad experience. The classic Brits are equally fine if you do them right, maintain them rigorously, and otherwise leave them alone. Here's me at the wheel of my favorite restoration (Seven S1 with 948 "A" series engine) in a VSCCA event at Lime Rock Park in 1990:



And here's the TD I restored and ran in VSCCA (taken at the Philadelphia Vintage Grand Prix in 1995).



So whenever I hear a horror story about a guitar or amplifier that needed unexpected work, I just smile and remember that the MG (sold to me by a friend of 40 years as a stock runner) didn't run and wouldn't roll when I went to Boston pick it up because the ring and pinion were rusted together. I had to pull the rear and winch the sucker onto my trailer with the rear on two roller jacks. And that was just the beginning. So I don't lose much sleep over a bad truss rod, a hidden crack, or a few bad caps.

[Stringswinger]

From an economic viewpoint, buying both cars and guitars used makes good sense as the immediate depreciation on both classes of assets is pretty big. On a $300 guitar or amp, the depreciation is a small enough amount to ignore, on a $5,000 guitar or amp, perhaps it should be considered?

I prefer used guitars to new for two reasons. The first is economic (I like to conserve scarce resources, and not being a Rockefeller or a Trump, I watch my dollars and cents). The second is mental. My guitars get dings in the ordinary course of playing gigs. A used guitar already is imperfect and so those dings do not matter, but when a ding happens to a perfect, new guitar on the bandstand, it causes me some mental distress. To avoid that, I mostly buy used gear.

[Marinero]

Between my sons, my wife, and me, we've had 4 Bimmers starting with a '74 Tii and including my Z3C, an M3 and an M2. Apart from the Z3's troubles, we've not had a bad experience. The classic Brits are equally fine if you do them right, maintain them rigorously, and otherwise leave them alone. Here's me at the wheel of my favorite restoration (Seven S1 with 948 "A" series engine) in a VSCCA event at Lime Rock Park in 1990:



And here's the TD I restored and ran in VSCCA (taken at the Philadelphia Vintage Grand Prix in 1995).



So whenever I hear a horror story about a guitar or amplifier that needed unexpected work, I just smile and remember that the MG (sold to me by a friend of 40 years as a stock runner) didn't run and wouldn't roll when I went to Boston pick it up because the ring and pinion were rusted together. I had to pull the rear and winch the sucker onto my trailer with the rear on two roller jacks. And that was just the beginning. So I don't lose much sleep over a bad truss rod, a hidden crack, or a few bad caps.

Wow, N,
Nothing short of beautiful! Hardly a street car!
Marinero

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

From an economic viewpoint, buying both cars and guitars used makes good sense as the immediate depreciation on both classes of assets is pretty big. On a $300 guitar or amp, the depreciation is a small enough amount to ignore, on a $5,000 guitar or amp, perhaps it should be considered?

I prefer used guitars to new for two reasons. The first is economic (I like to conserve scarce resources, and not being a Rockefeller or a Trump, I watch my dollars and cents). The second is mental. My guitars get dings in the ordinary course of playing gigs. A used guitar already is imperfect and so those dings do not matter, but when a ding happens to a perfect, new guitar on the bandstand, it causes me some mental distress. To avoid that, I mostly buy used gear.

I learned long ago to buy only the definite keepers new, unless used was the only way to get what I wanted or the item was dirt cheap. The beauty of doing my own work (in addition to knowing it's been done well and right) is that by the time I'm ready to sell it, almost every purchase is in fine shape and worth at least my total cost. Sometimes I get carried away and overdo / overspend on a restoration, whether it's a car, a guitar or something else. I wasted 2 years on that MG - I designed and fabricated the roll cage, header and exhaust system, welded up the oil catch tank from scratch, made steel floor panels from the sides of our old trash masher to replace the original wooden floorboards (which are unsafe for racing) etc etc. But I've pretty much broken even over about 50 years, even considering what I actually put into everything plus ancillaries like insurance and opportunity cost. I even made enough to pay for my racing and our family trips to tracks around the country.

I also did OK on my shop, which I had to sell when we retired and moved to an apartment 6 yars ago. My lathe was a 1949 South Bend Model A I bought from an auto electric shop when it closed. My compressor was an old iron cylinder V twin 60 gallon Puma, my mill was a hand-me-down from a shop that went CNC, and my heliarc welder was an old style Hobart the size of a small refrigerator that I got dirt cheap because everyone wanted a tiny SS/digital unit when they first came out. Sadly, my shop (20x30' with an 8x10 alcove off one end for the big machine tools and welders) was in the house. I had a makeshift paint booth where I could do cars, guitars, furniture and anything else. I even had an Eastwood glass bead cabinet. I sold the whole thing to a guy my age who'd "always wanted to learn to restore cars". I wished him luck, took the money, and watched him drive the rental truck down my driveway with the whole setup inside it.

I've been looking for a small secure garage in our neighborhood the last 6 years without success. So for now, all my hand, power, and measurement tools are in my roll-aways under a 10'x10'x2' steel shelving unit with integral workbench that I built into our storage locker in the basement of the condo. I do whatever big or dirty work I can on our loading dock, and I do guitar and electronics work on a mat on the coffee table in the den. I have plenty of room there to do setups, nuts, frets etc and to carry out many repairs. So I still buy used, repair / restore, and resell when I want to try or learn about something.

[bluejaybill]

I learned long ago to buy only the definite keepers new, unless used was the only way to get what I wanted or the item was dirt cheap. The beauty of doing my own work (in addition to knowing it's been done well and right) is that by the time I'm ready to sell it, almost every purchase is in fine shape and worth at least my total cost. Sometimes I get carried away and overdo / overspend on a restoration, whether it's a car, a guitar or something else. I wasted 2 years on that MG - I designed and fabricated the roll cage, header and exhaust system, welded up the oil catch tank from scratch, made steel floor panels from the sides of our old trash masher to replace the original wooden floorboards (which are unsafe for racing) etc etc. But I've pretty much broken even over about 50 years, even considering what I actually put into everything plus ancillaries like insurance and opportunity cost. I even made enough to pay for my racing and our family trips to tracks around the country.

I also did OK on my shop, which I had to sell when we retired and moved to an apartment 6 yars ago. My lathe was a 1949 South Bend Model A I bought from an auto electric shop when it closed. My compressor was an old iron cylinder V twin 60 gallon Puma, my mill was a hand-me-down from a shop that went CNC, and my heliarc welder was an old style Hobart the size of a small refrigerator that I got dirt cheap because everyone wanted a tiny SS/digital unit when they first came out. Sadly, my shop (20x30' with an 8x10 alcove off one end for the big machine tools and welders) was in the house. I had a makeshift paint booth where I could do cars, guitars, furniture and anything else. I even had an Eastwood glass bead cabinet. I sold the whole thing to a guy my age who'd "always wanted to learn to restore cars". I wished him luck, took the money, and watched him drive the rental truck down my driveway with the whole setup inside it.

I've been looking for a small secure garage in our neighborhood the last 6 years without success. So for now, all my hand, power, and measurement tools are in my roll-aways under a 10'x10'x2' steel shelving unit with integral workbench that I built into our storage locker in the basement of the condo. I do whatever big or dirty work I can on our loading dock, and I do guitar and electronics work on a mat on the coffee table in the den. I have plenty of room there to do setups, nuts, frets etc and to carry out many repairs. So I still buy used, repair / restore, and resell when I want to try or learn about something.

With your skills I would surely hope you buy used! For those of us without, and especially those who can not recognize a problem guitar, it is a dicier situation. I try to buy used when I can, and I feel pretty confident that I could spot any problems, and even take care of some minor ones. Even so, I ordered a custom guitar this year built to my specifications, because that was the only way I could get just what I wanted. First "new" instrument I've bought in close to 30 years.

For a beginner, I would look for new, or at least have someone who knows what he is doing look over any used item.

Used amps in particular are worth seeking out, especially tube amps can usually be brought back to right, just budget accordingly!

[rpjazzguitar]

I can buy a player's guitar and know what I'm getting.

I'd be nervous about buying a collector's instrument since I'm not sure I can spot problems or a complete fake.

That said, one of my two main guitars was bought used and it's fine. I checked it the same way I check a new guitar. If I like the ergonomics, I check intonation and then play every note on the fretboard to make sure they all ring clearly. I operate the moving parts (pots, switches, tuners) although I'm not worried about the electronics (because I know how to do that work myself if it's needed). I've always gotten a return privilege because I can't tell enough from a quick try out.

I've bought four amps used, over the years, and every one worked out fine. I just look to see that they seem to be generally well-cared for and sound good in an in person test.

[Phil59]

Since I did the original post, I'll volunteer my thoughts, for what they're worth. I am neither a top-level player nor a perfectionist. In my view, there are many good guitars and amps out there.

I always buy used. I agree with the observation that the gap between new and used overall isn't as great as it used to be. But it's still pretty wide in many if not most cases. And it seems to me that most people take good care of their stuff and don't misrepresent it when they sell.

I try to "buy right"--that is, at a relatively good price. So if I want to sell later, I will do OK. And if I have to pay a few bucks to fix something, that's part of the deal. Not fail-proof, but who cares? Why shouldn't I pay to rent a guitar or amp for a while, if that's what it amounts to?