-
I sure would feel better about the world if my two electronic tuners could agree on when a string is in tune. They're both clip-on tuners; one's an Intelli IMT-500, the other is a Sabine Zoid Z-1000.
The Sabine seems to run a little sharp of the Intelli. If I finesse the tuning I can get them to agree but I wouldn't know to do this if I were just using one. To be clear, they're too close for my ear to detect the difference but it's a little unsettling to know that which tuner I use could affect the outcome.
Any comments or suggestions?
Thanks.
-
03-22-2010 11:04 AM
-
It's not TOO surprizing that they don't agree. The timing circuit on these tuners is based on an inexpensive crystal oscillator. The "crystal" is the means by which the frequency is determined and it's a 15 cent part (MIC, of course) that is neither precise nor stable with age and temperature. In other words, it is what it is.
If you had the time, the tools and the inclination, you could replace the crystals in both units with higher quality devices (dirt-cheap). Usually, these things are so densely packaged that it's intimidating for one who is unaccustomed to working on this type of circuit to approach.
Purchasing a tuner that costs ten times as much doesn't necessarily include a higher quality crystal reference, I'm sorry to say. So if this is real important to you, take both tuners to the music store and try out three or four more until one agrees with one of the pair that you own and then purchase it. Give the other one away.
Sorry I can't offer more cheer,
randyc
-
Check the calibration. Tuners can all read differently approaching a note-some read in cents, some 5 cents, some ten, some 50 etc. However-the actual NOTE should be more or less there. So-a little sharp on one might mean as little as 1 cent-nothing, in real world tuning.
"In Tune" on a guitar is all relative anyway, as no guitar is "in tune" at all frets, all the way up the fretboard. Another thing to check is that you hold the guitar the same and strum the note the same. A hard strum will sharpen the note. A neck can move by tiny amounts also-which is why you never adjust a trussrod or do your intonation with the guitar on it's back.
Don't check how accurate they are by using your guitar--download a 440hz sine wave from the interweb thingie and check through your computer speakers. If you can't find one, shout back-I'll make one for you.
This is good enough
File:Sine wave 440.ogg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See how high it sounds? Knowing what different frequencies are will change your view on EQing forever. No more boosting Hi (which is between 10-12khz on most mixers) when you really need 3.2khz for boosting high end on an electric guitar!! Or cutting Lo, when you want to cut bass on a guitar-you should really be using parametric set to the 125 or 200 hz regions.
-
What's that old saying? A man with two watches never knows the time?
-
For those of us who have survived working bands, the band in which everyone has his own tuner is a shortcut to cacophony, for the reasons stated. It's not just that different brands or models of tuners have different tolerances, but seemingly identical examples of the same brand and model will not always agree. When I was playing bass, I routinely touched up the tuning by ear.
Luckily it was a dance hall band, which meant that most of the dancers were hearing-impaired from ethanol ingestion. It could still get ugly on the bandstand, though.
-
I had varying luck with clip on tuners and finally bit the bullet for a stomp box tuner and could not be happier. I bought the Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-200. Strobe Tuners by Sonic Research - Turbo Tuner Home Page
-
I like it! Need to get one for my Autoharp
Originally Posted by Steve Z
-
A few years ago I got a Peterson virtual strobe tuner. Pricey but reliable. That's what I use to intonate my guitars and basses.
-
Are the tuners built into amps like the roland Cube series any better? Or do they just have different cheap parts?
-
Chalk and cheese, really-you're talking about the difference between something being fed an audio signal,like on the cube, and one that picks up vibrations and then converts that into what the tuner uses. It's the fact that these are vibration seeking, rather than either getting audio directly or via a built-in mic, that causes/can cause these minor discrepencies.
-
That's a good question.
The size constraints that exist in "clip-on" tuners don't exist in amplifiers and for piezoelectric crystals (the device that determines frequency accuracy, frequency aging and frequency drift) bigger is always better. The manufacturer chooses the part primarily based on his cost goals.
Accuracy of the tiny (surface-mount) crystals used in the smaller tuners can vary from about 20 to 200 ppm (ppm = parts per million). A larger crystal can offer accuracy better than 1 ppm so the difference can be as great as 200 to 1. There are other contributors to accuracy than the crystal, although it is the greatest one.
Inaccuracy in other parts is manifested by tuner scale calibration/markings - don't rely on the scale markings or digital LED indicators for information. The only indication that's of importance is whether the input signal is exactly centered in whatever display system is being used by the manufacturer. An analog meter display is generally more consistent than a series of LEDs, all other parameters being equal.
A better question might be: what is acceptable accuracy? Consider that the human ear and the human brain aren't accurate and consistent measurement devices. And consider that western musical instruments are "tempered" and don't have a consistent frequency difference from note to note.
The conclusion for those of us who lack perfect pitch is described best by Cole Porter's classic: "Anything Goes" For the range of crystal frequency variations described above, it's extremely unlikely that an average person could discern a difference in pitch between maximum and minimum variations.
A thread regarding best methods of guitar tuning was posted some time back. Good thoughts about overcoming instrument/tuner deficiencies were posted in that thread and it might be worthwhile to review it.
PS: see my later post about accuracy versus resolution - BIG difference between the two terms !Last edited by randyc; 03-23-2010 at 05:47 PM. Reason: add PS
-
You guys are terrific. Thanks for all the useful replies.
-
I liked that one! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
/R
-
LOL, sometimes we get it right. This mightn't be one of those times, however.
I just measured the (MIC) Korg GT-3 that wanders around the house. This isn't a configuration that's desirable: seven LEDs that indicate frequency accuracy ... it cost maybe $8 or $9 US, ten years or so ago I think (my Uncle gave it to me - he tired of watching me dispute the piano, LOL). The markings on the display indicate a frequency difference between 430 and 450 Hz (the "A" reference = 440) for the min/max LED indicators.
OK, for seven LEDs, that implies an accuracy of about 1/2 the difference between one LED and the next or (450 - 430) / (1/2 x 6) = 1.67 Hz ... OK?
Then I measured the frequency difference between the middle indicator and the lower and upper indicators - the frequency difference between these LED indicators was close to the manufacturer's markings.
Carefully interpreted, this inexpensive tuner might give a resolution consistent with the above comments - ignoring the frequency ACCURACY. The point being that resolution is the greatest source of error, not the accuracy of the internal reference oscillator.
Get it? The device is capable of frequency accuracy of much less than 0.1 Hz but, because economics dictated the means of displaying the information, the PRACTICAL accuracy is about 2 Hz and many people CAN hear THAT difference.
As mentioned previously, an analog meter display is much preferred to a digital display - digital displays only indicate incremental information, rather than relative information. Not likely to find an analog meter these days - they add about $6 to the cost of the tuner.
Sorry to complicate a seemingly simple question and I hope that you hang around on the forum - things aren't always this confusing
cheers,
randyc
-
I just bought a $29 Behringer floor tuner. Acurate and easy to use, seems well built and sturdy. Time will tell on that matter. My Roland 20X's tuner also does a good job. When I'm at informal jams we tune to the same devise which helps, usually a Korg chromatic.
-
The first tuner I ever had was a big clunky Korg. It had a real analog needle, and a calibration screw: hold a vibrating A440 tuning fork near the mic and zero the needle. It was better than anything I've had since.
-
It's best to check it with 3 tuners, just to be sure.
-
Or if you're Irish, like me, to be sure,to be sure,to be sure Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
-
Isn't there a joke about two Irishmen looking for work and seeing a sign "Tree fellers wanted"?
-
Yeah-but it's even older than me!
-
I was wondering, I have a tuner app on my iPhone that seems to do much better than any of the other tuners I have. Any idea why that's the case? It's called "Cleartune" - Cleartune - Chromatic Instrument Tuner for iPhone
-
Maybe a better mic on your phone for the specific frequency range of a guitar than on other "sound operated" tuners?
-
Perhaps because the time base on all cell sites (not the phone, the site) is far more accurate than almost anything else on the planet. The time information is sent to your cellular phone periodically - often enough to keep it accurate. That's because they use TDOA (time delay on arrival) signal location algorithms for E911 calls. Their time base has to be highly accurate in order to calculate locations correctly.
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos