Archtop Wood Saddle Intonation - How is yours?

[deacon Mark]

Ok I am a bit bored but given Vinny's new bridge I have an intonation question for those with archtops and wooded saddles. These can be either rosewood or ebony and I would like to have some players give feedback on there guitars with approx. cents off at the 12th fret and at each fret? In other words how much variance do you have and what can you hear to be off. I will bite first and say my ears can hear 3 cents off pretty easy. That does not mean that if the string is 4-5 cents out it will drive me crazy but the of octaves it would drive me crazy.

For myself if the guitar at the 12th fret on each string within 2 cents I am good to go and feel wonderful. At 3 cents it ok but depends how many strings are off. If only one is off then not a big deal but more than 2 strings being off compound the problem. On my 1979 Barker guitar at the 12th each string is within 2 cents at the 12th and no note in the fingerboard between 1 and 12 is off by more than 3 cents. One consideration is the tuner it can vary itself and how you attach the note with pick or finger.

On my 1949 D'angelico NY nothing is off at the 12th by more than 3 cents and for some reason this guitar on my tuner has trouble locking in the pitch. For whatever reason on this guitar the pitch of the notes as they ring vary more than my others. It is not consistent in how it reacts and I don't exactly know why except possibly the guitar is so lively ( yes very) and the mid range and bass are very powerful it causes the tuner to be jumpier. In contrast my Super400ces plugged into the tuner is deadly consistent.

The most stable from note to note on the fingerboard and octave are a toss up between my Hollenbeck and the Campy. Recently I set up Gibson Citation with an ebony bridge and at the 19th fret the note was never off more than 3-4 cents. Now that my friends is pretty amazing and some strings were 2 cents off ( all a bit sharp). I consider that just luck.

So my question for thought and discussion is how far are you guitars off and do you notice difference between your guitars and margins of error. What is your margin of error? Finally no matter what a tuner says when I use one to get the guitar set up and in tune, I still check with my ear and that is what counts. Sometimes my ear detects things tuners do not. So are we spitting hairs at what point?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

So my question for thought and discussion is how far are you guitars off and do you notice difference between your guitars and margins of error. What is your margin of error? Finally no matter what a tuner says when I use one to get the guitar set up and in tune, I still check with my ear and that is what counts. Sometimes my ear detects things tuners do not. So are we spitting hairs at what point?

Great topic, Mark! I’ve tried and failed to find true consistency from guitar to guitar. In general, +/-2c is a good working window for me. But it depends a lot on the guitar.

The most accurate one I have right now is a Raines Tele 7 designed by Chris Forshage and made in a decent Chinese CNC factory. I put a Hipshot bridge on it because the one that came on it was similar in design but crudely made. And it broke E1 strings where they ran over the baseplate edge on their way to the saddle. With the Hipshot, I got it to within +/- 1c (for at least the first few tunes…) on the top 6 and only +/-1 more on the 0.080 7th. If I’m really light with my touch, even the 7th is very good. But………

I discovered that different guitars are affected differently by a slight tuning and intonation changes of as little as 1 or 2 cents. Even though I can’t hear it while playing single string, it manifests on certain strings in certain chords - but it’s different strings, chords and harmonic combos on different guitars. On the Tele7, the G string seems particularly sensitive, so close inside inversions with a fretted note on the G can sound a tiny bit harsh if it’s the slightest bit off tune.

My Eastman 810CE7 has an ebony bridge and is no worse than +/-3c with Chromes. I put a set of John Pearse 80/20s on it and intonation improved by a cent or so over the Chromes. And I haven’t yet found any chords or harmonies that are thrown off by a cent or two on a string or two.

My 7 string Les Paul is also +/-3c and seems harmonically insensitive to a cent or two. But my Ibanez 7 string flat top with a standard slanted single saddle bridge is +/-3 or more, and upper partials can be a bit harsh if I didn’t temper the tuning just right. It sounds great played in the lower 8, but it suffers some harmonically if I’m playing chord melody on a jazz tune above 10 even when its onboard tuner says it’s perfect. I’ve never compared a clip-on to the Fishman that’s in it, but now that you brought up the issue, I will.

Weird, huh?

[Stringswinger]

Mark, I pulled out all 10 of my archtops and checked 12th fret intonation today.

I have not bought or sold an archtop in over 4 years now and am not gassing for any, so I guess my harem is complete. Perhaps one day, I will downsize or perhaps my wife will sell them after I am gone. Time will tell in that regard.

I like wood saddles and am not particular about ebony vs. rosewood. Half of my archtops have an ebony saddle and half have rosewood. Four of them are compensated for the B string and 6 are straight (Bob Benedetto claims that a straight saddle gives better intonation than a compensated one).

Some of my guitars had perfect intonation all across the six strings and some of them had a few strings (all wound) that were almost 1 cent sharp. The guitars that were perfect all had recent string changes, the guitars with the slightly off strings had TI strings that had been on for awhile. So much for the flatwounds last forever theory. They go out, but not enough to bother me, even while playing octaves. Chords played over the 10th fret do start to sound a bit off though.

My takeaway from this exercise is that I need to change the TI Flats a bit more often.

I do not like the overtones that a metal bridge gives on an archtop. I once tried a set of 10's with a plain 3rd on one of my 175's and the third string intonation was off. I bought a TOM with nylon saddles and I found that the intonation was easy to set to perfect without the metal bridge overtones, but the woodyness that I love in an archtop was gone. So I restrung that guitar to a set of 11's with a wound third and replaced the TOM with the original Rosewood bridge and saddle. And that is how I like it. My TOM bridges all stay in the case pockets on my archtops. If the next owner likes that, it will be an easy switch at their first string change.

[deacon Mark]

Mark, I pulled out all 10 of my archtops and checked 12th fret intonation today.

I have not bought or sold an archtop in over 4 years now and am not gassing for any, so I guess my harem is complete. Perhaps one day, I will downsize or perhaps my wife will sell them after I am gone. Time will tell in that regard.

I like wood saddles and am not particular about ebony vs. rosewood. Half of my archtops have an ebony saddle and half have rosewood. Four of them are compensated for the B string and 6 are straight (Bob Benedetto claims that a straight saddle gives better intonation than a compensated one).



Some of my guitars had perfect intonation all across the six strings and some of them had a few strings (all wound) that were almost 1 cent sharp. The guitars that were perfect all had recent string changes, the guitars with the slightly off strings had TI strings that had been on for awhile. So much for the flatwounds last forever theory. They go out, but not enough to bother me, even while playing octaves. Chords played over the 10th fret do start to sound a bit off though.

My takeaway from this exercise is that I need to change the TI Flats a bit more often.

I do not like the overtones that a metal bridge gives on an archtop. I once tried a set of 10's with a plain 3rd on one of my 175's and the third string intonation was off. I bought a TOM with nylon saddles and I found that the intonation was easy to set to perfect without the metal bridge overtones, but the woodyness that I love in an archtop was gone. So I restrung that guitar to a set of 11's with a wound third and replaced the TOM with the original Rosewood bridge and saddle. And that is how I like it. My TOM bridges all stay in the case pockets on my archtops. If the next owner likes that, it will be an easy switch at their first string change.

Bob Benedetto is exactly correct the best intonation is the straight saddle. He did not get to the top of heap without a lot and knowledge and wisdom. The days of Bill Barker in the the early 1980s and setting guitars. It was a different world for sure.

[vinnyv1k]

Both my Campellones are spot on every string at the 12th with ebony saddles. 0 cents off.
My Gibson's need toms.
My ears are ok with being a little flat but sharp drives me crazy which my Gibson's are with wood.
I play every Sunday at church with a Baldwin grand that gets tuned every 3 months.
You really notice intonation when playing with a perfectly tuned piano.
Not so much playing with another guitar or other instruments.
Most church songs are in G, Ab, Eb, Bb, F, so you are usually up higher on the neck where intonation
tends to be a problem.
When playing with a perfect tuned piano you will sound out of tune pretty bad if just a little sharp.
Flat not as noticeable. At least to my ears. I DO prefer wood tonally but intonation is more important to me.