Adding a CC pickup to a Levin Archtop

[PentiVarg]

Hi all. My son (a dedicated 17 y/o jazz guitar student) just bought a restored 1952 Levin Model 2N Solist archtop (Swedish manufacturer later bought by Gibson) with a floating Lawrence PU for his Big Band playing.

He is now searching for the CC sound. At the moment he’s looking at the CC PU UK for the most authentic sound. I’ve read that there are many other manufacturers like Lollar, that makes similar types but not with the original design of the UK CC. But maybe less humming while not playing.

Any ideas about that? Does anyone have experience in equipping a old Levin with CC PU and if so is the UK CC the best sounding one (the mounting seems to make more “damage” to the guitar with this kind) and if so should he go for the ES 250 model with 6 notches? And the last question, he’s playing on an old peavey classic 30, is the “Hum Debugger” a good option for noice reduction? I’m not a musician but a curling father.

Regards

[pcjazz]

The Hum Debugger works very well.

There are less destructive ways to get closer to the CC sound than installing a replica with its extra holes and heavy magnets. Lollar and Biltoft both make single coil bar pickups that fit in an existing rout, as well as floaters that may work well on your son’s guitar. With one of these and an “octal circuit” preamp like the Junior Barnyard your son will be able to get closer to the CC sound without major surgery on his Levin.

[PentiVarg]

@pcjazz. Thanks for your inputs. As of now the guitar has no mounted pickup in the body except for the Lawrence floater and he wants to have a fixed CC pickup in the Levin.
1) Will the Lollar or the Biltoft CC pickup be easier to install and require less major surgery to the guitar than a UK CC?
2) which of the Lollar or Biltoft pickups sounds the best without the need for a preamp?
3) would a UK cc pickup sounds better on an old archtop, than the pickups mentioned above?
many thanks

[pcjazz]

@pcjazz. Thanks for your inputs. As of now the guitar has no mounted pickup in the body except for the Lawrence floater and he wants to have a fixed CC pickup in the Levin.

1) Will the Lollar or the Biltoft CC pickup be easier to install and require less major surgery to the guitar than a UK CC?

Yes.

2) which of the Lollar or Biltoft pickups sounds the best without the need for a preamp?

They all sound good. But your son’s amp won’t sound like CC’s, whatever the pickup. Hence the preamp.

3) would a UK cc pickup sounds better on an old archtop, than the pickups mentioned above?

Depends on too many other factors to say. While equipment is a factor, ultimately tone is in the fingers.

I suggest you first try one of the “octal” preamps without changing anything on the guitar. It may deliver the tone your son is after without cutting into the top, which is irreversible and potentially damaging.

[foner]

Floating CCpickup from Pete Biltoff would be the option for a no-problem install. Liked by a lot of people, it would be my first option: buy it, you can install it if you are handy or have a luthier to do it, play it for a while, see if you like it. In case you don’t like it, you can resell it or save it for another guitar.
Uk’s CCpickup, on the other hand, it’s the best CCpickup there is now available, a real replica. And not as noisy as people think, IF your luthier installs it properly with grounding tape underneath the pick-up, underneath the pots and with the mandatory grounding wire attached to the tailpiece. Position of the guitar with respect to the amp is another factor you can use to keep noise at minimum. Transistor amps will be as a general rule much less noisy with this pickup than tube amps, but that’s another story.
Important with Levin guitars: most acoustic Levin guitars pre-1960’s sport a single transversal tonebar like american Stromberg guitars. So if you route the top for the pickup you’ll cut straight onto it. For that reason, it’s in my opinion mandatory that a luthier REMOVES the back of the guitar,
takes off the tonebar, routes the top for the pickup and INSTALL new tonebars (X or parallel).
I know, I know… big hastle. I had it done on a couple of guitars because I’m friends with my luthier, otherwise I’d never gone that route because yes, it’s a MAJOR PITA!
And devalues the guitar. And you won’t know if you’ll like it or not until its all paid and done. And no going back.
On the other hand: I’m happy with one of the guitars I’ve had this done, and extremely happy with the other. In my case, a win situation, but not necessarily in all cases, its sort of a lottery.

I wish you good luck with any decisions you make and hope it ends up satisfactorily.

[Hammertone]

I'd go for some floating option, because, despite the fairly low value for vintage Levin archtops, a set-in pickup will erase a lot of its existing and future value.

However, if it's going to happen, I'd recommend installing a single Dearmond 2000 "Dynasonic" pickup instead of a CC, because Levin did offer its arch top guitars with this option. In addition to being a superb-sounding single coil pickup, it could be installed to look historically correct, which would have less of an effect on the diminution of the guitar's current and future value.

Of course, if you and your son are not concerned about that, then go nuts with a top-installed CC! Put a double-cream Dimarzio X2N in the bridge position!

[gitman]

This is a clip with Jesse van Ruller/Netherlands where he plays his Elferink guitar (patterned after his old Levin) with the above mentioned pickup - depending on the type of amp/preamp/eq your son will be using this combo will most definitely put him on track, be it within a bigband setting or any other.

[oldane]

Important with Levin guitars: most acoustic Levin guitars pre-1960’s sport a single transversal tonebar like american Stromberg guitars. So if you route the top for the pickup you’ll cut straight onto it. For that reason, it’s in my opinion mandatory that a luthier REMOVES the back of the guitar,
takes off the tonebar, routes the top for the pickup and INSTALL new tonebars (X or parallel).

Foner beat me to it. I agree 100%. DON'T cut the one and only brace the guitar has to install a pickup. The structural integrity of the guitar may become compromized.

Levin was founded in 1900 in Gotenburg, Sweden, by Hermann Carlsson Levin. It produced about ½ MIO instruments during its lifetime. It was bought by C.F. Martin (not Gibson) in 1973 and the production shut down in 1978. They produced guitars that was held in high esteem in Northern Europe before American guitars became more widespread over here in the mid 1960s. Generally they were regarded higher than the more common German guitars of the time (Höfner, Framus etc.). Some of their archtops had some peculiarities, among them the mentioned single diagonal brace and a truss rod adjustment mechanism in the neck block which was accessed through the strap button hole with a long wrench.

[Cunamara]

@pcjazz. Thanks for your inputs. As of now the guitar has no mounted pickup in the body except for the Lawrence floater and he wants to have a fixed CC pickup in the Levin.

1) Will the Lollar or the Biltoft CC pickup be easier to install and require less major surgery to the guitar than a UK CC?

Much, much easier. Either of those makers can create a floating CC style pickup that will come very close to the tone of the original design, if not exactly. However, a floater will not require cutting a hole in the top, drilling holes in the top, possibly having to re-brace the top so that they aren't cut to make room for the pick up, etc.

The Lawrence pickup is probably an A400 which is mounted by a bracket to the end of the neck, although perhaps he has a different model. it is an excellent pickup although the sound signature is probably more acoustic than the CC style pickups are, which tend to sound more electric.

The two pickups mentioned above would mount in the same way or could be mounted to the pickguard via a tab protruding from the side of the pickup. You can look at either makers' website to see pictures. I had one made by Pete Biltoft at vintagevibeguitars.com that was excellent; he was also able to make it to the specific dimensions that I needed for my guitar at very reasonable cost.

A third option, which I have used with good results and which is ridiculously simple, is using some "Blue Tack" adhesive putty to just stick the pickup directly to the top. Two pea-sized bits of adhesive will work fine (more and it's very hard to get the pickup off again).

2) which of the Lollar or Biltoft pickups sounds the best without the need for a preamp?

Neither needs a preamp. They can go straight into his Peavey amp as is. Both sound excellent.

3) would a UK cc pickup sounds better on an old archtop, than the pickups mentioned above?
many thanks

That is a matter of taste, not of absolute fact. Installing one of these pickups is major surgery. The back of the instrument would probably have to be removed, a hole cut in the top for the pickup and three more screw holes for the mounting screws. The bracing might have to be redone underneath the top to support the pick up. All in all, for my values and perspective- which include not risking screwing up an old and not especially common guitar (at least in the US)- would be to go with the floating pickup option.

Here is some comparison of both the floating and installed versions that might be helpful, recorded by forum member Fred Archtop.

All of these pick ups hum like crazy; the Electro Harmonics Hum Debugger works pretty well at taming that, in my experience.

[sys]

I hate to suggest a totally different thing - but as a lover of these old Levins (my main guitar is a Royal model from the same year) it hurts me a little to see one cut out like that! Personally I think that even though these guitars aren't prized from a financial point of view the way their American counterparts are, they are absolutely wonderful sounding, and worth preserving for their original acoustic voice. But hey, I am just some doofus on the internet, and it's your guitar! So do whatever makes sense to you.

The floating CC mentioned above could be a great option. With mine I use a pickup by Rautia guitars, the Slimmy Jazz, which is vaguely inspired in construction technique by the old kjells that these came with - but I guess you have plenty of other options for a floating CC style pickup, and it's a heck of a sound!

Note that with the way the Levin's neck extension is, the Johnny Smith housing attached to the fingerboard gets it a little too close to the strings for my taste. The tabs are a little too short to reach any part of the extension that would allow you to bring it down lower. I chose to just blu tack mine on directly on to the guitar, and it sounds fantastic (and maybe actually a little more similar to a drilled in pickup, but it's hard to gauge such things) but there are other more elegant methods of mounting, including on to a pickguard, or just a mount with some longer tabs. I am sure many of the pickup makers out there would be happy to accommodate something like that.

EDIT: I just reread your original post and I missed the part where you mentioned he already has a floating pickup. In that case ignore my rambling about different methods of installing the pickup - looks like you have that covered. Just make sure the mounting method is the same for whatever you get, and it should be an easy replacement. But yes - a CC floating pickup is likely to be a lot closer to the sound he is looking for than the Bill Lawrence , and it's worth a shot to try another pickup before going down the routing path!

[JFranck]

excerpt from a 50s Levin catalog

please, don't ruin your Solist ! it was the second best model in Levin production and their prices are rising. You could see them used by prominent professional guitarists in UK and in France in the 50s and 60s as they had a very fine acoustic sound and superior quality. They were usually fitted with Kjell pickups or floating De Armonds.
Biltoft CC pickups are top notch, and very quiet ; have had one of them for more than 10 years !

[PentiVarg]

Thank you all for your inputs on this matter. I succeeded to make him go for the floating Biltoft CC so he can use the already made holes on the neck from the previous Lawrence pu.

once again, Many thanks. Now it is just time to find a Gibson GA 50 amp…

[Cunamara]

While Jim Hall was famous for using that amplifier, it is really not loud enough for use in a band setting unless it can be miked. They do have a gorgeous sound. Plus they are old and likely to be unreliable at this point. Even Jim Hall sold his because it was no longer reliable and used a Polytone instead for most of the latter half of his career.

I would go this route rather than looking for an old fragile amp that would need most of its innards replaced:

Tribute - Raezer's Edge

[John A.]

While Jim Hall was famous for using that amplifier, it is really not loud enough for use in a band setting unless it can be miked. They do have a gorgeous sound. Plus they are old and likely to be unreliable at this point. Even Jim Hall sold his because it was no longer reliable and used a Polytone instead for most of the latter half of his career.

I would go this route rather than looking for an old fragile amp that would need most of its innards replaced:

Tribute - Raezer's Edge

I don't think that's quite the story. At some point, Hall stopped taking the Gibson on the road and instead traveled with a Polytone, but used the Gibson locally and recorded with it for a long time after that point. I saw Hall use the Gibson many times at NY performances until somewhere in the 90s, when he started using the Walter Woods amp /Harry Kolbe speaker rig.

[sgosnell]

Your son will not sound like Charlie Christian through a Peavy amp by itself, nor will anyone else. He used an amp with octal tubes and a field coil speaker. You can get in the ballpark with a pedal such as the Jr Barnyard or JJ150, with the Peavy or most other amps. The amp is more important than the guitar or the pickup for this type of sound. I would not advise trying to use a GA-50. It's too old, unreliable, and expensive. Collectors love them, but they don't gig with them. There are new amps available that will do the job, such as the Vintage 47, and perhaps one of the Raezer's Edge amps such as the Skoter. But a cheaper option that works as well is a pedal. I suggest trying that first.

[PentiVarg]

I know. The Gibson GA-50 and it’s tribute is also way to expensive and he has already spent all is his earnings on this Levin and a new Westville S-ply semi hollow by saving and selling his other guitars that luckily raises I value (he’s only 17 y/o) and can’t be to spoiled. The amp problem is actually that the Peavey Classic 30 is to loud in an apartment. We installed an attenuator (not a straight forward process on a C30) but not enough. So now a smaller amp with max price $600 is in the radar. Was looking at the blues jr but got a bad sensation after review reading. He hates pedals so that’s so. Sometimes he might accept a chorus or reverb if obligatory for a particular performance.
so next hunt is on. A small tube amp that allow him to play in a city apartment, light to carry to gigs and good sound without pedals and still feel like the real thing (ie not like the spark amp) and a budget of $600 tops.

[sys]

Glad to hear you decided to go for a floating pickup!

As you are probably finding out, the problem with guitar gear is that there are just so many options, all different, and it can be hard to narrow down. With amps, you'll get a lot of different responses and there are a lot of different paths you can take.

But considering that it looks like your son has an affinity for old school vintage stuff - one GREAT option on a budget is to build a fender tweed style amp from a kit. This can also be incredibly satisfying, and can be a very fun activity for you two to do together, assuming it sounds appealing to you. I loved that kind of stuff with my father when I was his age. He'll learn a lot about his equipment, and it's very satisfying to play something you built yourself. Also doable even if you never held a soldering iron in your life, as long as you are willing to learn.

If you are in Europe I would highly suggest look at uraltone.com (great quality stuff), at either their 5e3 or 5f1 kits. Old school circuits for old school sounds. If you are stateside, there are a ton of options as well for the same circuits. If you are somewhere else... Well then I don't know, there's is probably some option also

[sys]

Though just to add - realistically you can probably pull off making a 5f1 kit for that price (the lower power option, but wonderful sounding), the 5e3 (higher power, though less than his Peavey - the more classic gigging jazz choice) will probably go over, unless you have the tools and desire to build the cabinet also.And you will not have much resale value - but he will also gain an experience and a skill. Just something to consider among the many other options.

[Christian Miller]

The Line HX Stomp has a octal model on it. Has anyone tried it? Is it shite?

In three years your son may decide he wants to sound like Ben Monder or someone. My advice? Get a Nocturne Brain Jr Barnyard. EDIT: I haven’t tried this preamp with a Peavey Classic, but I can’t see why it wouldn’t work just as well as it does with my various amps.

I also think a slap back echo or some sort of IR of a room with hard surfaces may help get that vibe in a dry room; the room sound is a big part of Charlie’s recorded tone. The Line 6 has IR support so if the octal model is decent this could be a good option though more techie than the other option. Plus you can get any guitar amp/pedal combo you could conceivably want.

Here is my tone using the Jr Banyard preamp and a Gibson ES175. It’s DI’d and I’m running IR’s for a 10” speaker and a hard walled room.
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[entresz]

Levin make fine guitars. I have a very humble 1960 335 model and it's one of the better 16" acoustic archtops I've played. It's not worth much money but it sounds terrific and has a great neck.

Routing a hole in the beautifully carved top of a high end guitar like a Soloist shows very little respect for the instrument. That's just my opinion. There are many fine floating pickups voiced for that CC sound - I personally use one made by Pete Biltoft that sounds great and through a Jr Barnyard preamp into a Quilter amp gets a very convincing Charlie Christian-like sound.

Honestly if you're hell bent on routing a hole in a guitar, it's better to sell the Levin and get something like a Loar LH600/700 and put the UK Charlie Christian pickup in that instead.