Speaking of George Benson....

[st.bede]

I don't disagree with you, but most of Coltrane is IMO extremely accessible. I think that's what we're getting at, right? Accessibility vs highly complex and esoteric?

Not only has Benson healed a lot of people, I guarantee a lot of babies have been created listening to Benson albums, and that has to count for something, right?

First, thank you for responded. So often words seem to disappear into the internet.

Second, I agree with you that overall Coltrane is accessible. I think he is a good example because, when I was young, I was listening to his Newport 65 (I think that is the album), and I felt like I was not fully getting it. Later when I came back to that album, it all made sense. There are pieces or areas of music, I still have a hard time fully grasping. Even though my favorite 12 tone row composer is Berg, I do not really connect with his opera Wozzec .

Yes in part it is about accessibility, but there is more to that. Comfort with a experience is sometimes a factor in preferences.

We could make a long list of preferences that would contain bunches of dichotomies. These dichotomies would be spoken in the same sentence when we asked someone why they liked something.

For example, “I like it when I can understand what is happening but it is not boring”. Typically that type of statement is saying: I like it when I can predict something but not too much. As a musician, what does that mean? Do I use common chord progressions and then throw in a modulation to another key for a bit, and come back around to the original key? ... or maybe I sub some chords out... those devices seemed to work extremely well for the Beatles. (... and many others).

I do not think anyone can fully understand why they like or dislike something.

As an artist, I think what is of upmost importance is connecting as deeply to your vision of what art is, as possible. The problem with that is, no one can make a judgement about that process and if it has been fully actualized but the artist themselves.

Now there is another story. What if you reach that moment when you have so expressed that inner vision? Do you continue on that path? Do you say, “I did it I am done”? Do you start to see other’s needs as more important?

Which each of those decisions, what values do they contain? What strengths and what weaknesses? How could you even decide?

my instincts suggest that BB King and George Benson had that moment.

I myself will never have that moment. I can explain why, but that beings up a whole set of questions.

[Doctor Jeff]

First, thank you for responded. So often words seem to disappear into the internet.

Second, I agree with you that overall Coltrane is accessible. I think he is a good example because, when I was young, I was listening to his Newport 65 (I think that is the album), and I felt like I was not fully getting it. Later when I came back to that album, it all made sense. There are pieces or areas of music, I still have a hard time fully grasping. Even though my favorite 12 tone row composer is Berg, I do not really connect with his opera Wozzec .

Yes in part it is about accessibility, but there is more to that. Comfort with a experience is sometimes a factor in preferences.

We could make a long list of preferences that would contain bunches of dichotomies. These dichotomies would be spoken in the same sentence when we asked someone why they liked something.

For example, “I like it when I can understand what is happening but it is not boring”. Typically that type of statement is saying: I like it when I can predict something but not too much. As a musician, what does that mean? Do I use common chord progressions and then throw in a modulation to another key for a bit, and come back around to the original key? ... or maybe I sub some chords out... those devices seemed to work extremely well for the Beatles. (... and many others).

I do not think anyone can fully understand why they like or dislike something.

As an artist, I think what is of upmost importance is connecting as deeply to your vision of what art is, as possible. The problem with that is, no one can make a judgement about that process and if it has been fully actualized but the artist themselves.

Now there is another story. What if you reach that moment when you have so expressed that inner vision? Do you continue on that path? Do you say, “I did it I am done”? Do you start to see other’s needs as more important?

Which each of those decisions, what values do they contain? What strengths and what weaknesses? How could you even decide?

my instincts suggest that BB King and George Benson had that moment.

I myself will never have that moment. I can explain why, but that beings up a whole set of questions.

Certainly Coltrane never seems to have stopped striving for transcendence. That cannot be said of most artists, even very accomplished ones.

[Doctor Jeff]

My understanding is that a lot of his recorded output even after the Ibanez endorsement is played on the Gibson Johnny Smith, although I don't know if that's verified.

I have a 1981 GB10 that I've owned since it was five years old. My impression of that guitar is that it was intended to approximate the Johnny Smith sound in a smaller, more feedback resistant and more portable package. I find it to be an extremely well designed guitar with a broad range of tones available with a little knob twiddling. The hotness of the pickups makes it possible to utilize the tonal effects of rolling off the volume knob to get a warm, fat sound. Or, if one wants, one can get that bright cutting tone that George seems to like. It's easy to get in and out of a gig due to the small size, is very comfortable to play standing on stage in limited space, and as everybody always comments has a great neck. And for practicing on the couch without an amplifier, the acoustic tone is serviceable.

Well at a certain point he donated it to the Musical Instrument Museum, cause I saw it there about 3 years ago.

George Benson'''s guitar at the Musical Instrument Museum, Phoenix, Arizona, USA Stock Photo - Alamy

[princeplanet]

Well little prince, As soon as you have the number of albums out Tal did, and are internationally known and valued more than in your own country, you go right ahead and cut the dead to pieces. Then we could lump you with other famous musicians that crap on other famous musicians greats. In the mean time you do not, out of decency, run down a musician generally considered by everyone from GB to Jimmy Page as a great influence.
i was a friend and a student. If you have inside knowledge on his sloppyness, let me know. If you sat hearing him live in NJ/NYC 84-96, let me know how sloppy his chord melody work was then. But me, no. Told in confidence and so it shall stay.

Ha, little prince, ok. ... I haven't heard every TF album, so maybe I need to listen deeper, can you suggest some of his cripser dates? And hey, it probably is unfair to judge players by their worst playing, heck, I have some rare Wes dates where he sounds pretty sloppy too! I like fast playing as much as the next guy, but I certainly agreed with Bill Evans when he said he felt players should play within their means, and not "approximate" aspects like speed.

There was, unfortunately, obvious pressure on many players to impress with speed and Tal was not immune, otherwise attempting Cherokee at 400 bpm would not have happened. OK if you're Art Tatum, or Oscar Peterson on a piano, but guitar picking complex jazz lines (Django, GB, Birelli more so than McLaughlin, Dimeola retc) at warp speeds sounds sloppy to me once the tempo gets faster than one can play cleanly. YMMV...

[vernon]

Back in 1974, I heard George Benson play at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street in Chicago. He played really well. That was before he started singing. After that, I didn’t pay attention to him.

This brings me to one of my secret pet peeves. Listening to a new jazz album by an instrumentalist, and suddenly, an unwanted vocalist appears as if out of nowhere. Always a bummer for me… but I am a radical instrumental music purist.

[st.bede]

T

This brings me to one of my secret pet peeves. Listening to a new jazz album by an instrumentalist, and suddenly, an unwanted vocalist appears as if out of nowhere. Always a bummer for me… but I am a radical instrumental music purist.

I used to be just like that. I hated all singing. The only time I could stand it was when it was in a language I did not speak. That way the words would not get in the way of hearing, the melody, and other elements of the music. For example, I have loved opera for many years.

At one point, I had to learn how to sing. I did around two years of lessons. I had to change my thoughts about vocal stuff. It is a very different process learning to sing, then any other instrument, that I have learned to play. My vocal teacher would drive me crazy with her metaphors. One day I realized how many metaphors that I used in playing other instruments. Things came together a bit.

I still find myself falling back into that habit, of thinking, “these stupid words are distracting me from the music”, and “I do not what to think about some girl form someplace I have no idea how to spell”. That just happened yesterday. The guitar solo was good.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

This brings me to one of my secret pet peeves. Listening to a new jazz album by an instrumentalist, and suddenly, an unwanted vocalist appears as if out of nowhere. Always a bummer for me… but I am a radical instrumental music purist.

[Gabor]

I don't really like Benson. He's way to mellow.

know your subject.

[Gabor]

He is obviously a floating lover. His passionate playing and musical soulfulnesscis great with the floating pu thinner sound, especially in the lower registers.

Maybe it is the recording, but that Gibson sound not as good as later Ibanez.

[Gabor]

While not really influenced by GB, I recently spent time transcribing a lot of Benson licks (on Breezin’ era stuff) alongside some of other well known players for a website, which naturally meant a lot of listening to him at half speed

good god does this man have amazing time. Not a controversial take, or course; but it’s not simply his innate time feel and sense of groove which is of course killer but also the sheer precision and lack of ‘lag’ in his articulation. He plays rhythms so exactly it’s scary. If there’s another guitar player who can rival him on this I can’t of them.

Incredible time. In this forum we talk 95 percent about of notes, but musicality and expression is at least 50 percent about time and articulation.

[Gabor]

Back in 1974, I heard George Benson play at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street in Chicago. He played really well. That was before he started singing. After that, I didn’t pay attention to him.

This brings me to one of my secret pet peeves. Listening to a new jazz album by an instrumentalist, and suddenly, an unwanted vocalist appears as if out of nowhere. Always a bummer for me… but I am a radical instrumental music purist.

Me too. But interestingly Chick Corea managed it (with Flora Purim) The vocal is really integrated to the whole. I love it.

[Gabor]

I really do not understand the general whining about Benson's sold out topic. Lets suppose he never played jazz, and never improvized in his soul recordings. Even this case he would be one the greatest soul musician, and this forum nobody argued it.

Now he created plus at least dozen great jazz albums, and ironically this makes he less.

[Litterick]

We should be grateful that a jazz musician made an effort to improve pop music. I wonder how many jazz musicians and listeners came to jazz through Benson.

That said, what I do dislike about Benson is the product endorsing: the overpriced Thomastik-Infeld strings, the overpriced Fender amp, etc.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

We should be grateful that a jazz musician made an effort to improve pop music. I wonder how many jazz musicians and listeners came to jazz through Benson.

That said, what I do dislike about Benson is the product endorsing: the overpriced Thomastik-Infeld strings, the overpriced Fender amp, etc.

No one is being forced to buy these things. Plus, they keep George in champagne and ladies.

[Donplaysguitar]

Is it just me or is that Chick Corea on keys in this clip? Aging eyes and a small phone screen sure can make it hard to tell sometimes.

Sent from my LE2127 using Tapatalk

yes it’s a Johnny Smith guitar and yes that is Chick.

[Donplaysguitar]

Back in 1974, I heard George Benson play at the old Jazz Showcase on Rush Street in Chicago. He played really well. That was before he started singing. After that, I didn’t pay attention to him.

This brings me to one of my secret pet peeves. Listening to a new jazz album by an instrumentalist, and suddenly, an unwanted vocalist appears as if out of nowhere. Always a bummer for me… but I am a radical instrumental music purist.

nope, check out “The Other Side of Abbey Road”, 1970. Benson singing the Beatles not just playing them (on CTI) like Wes.

Little Georgie Benson was singing on the street as a youngster, and if I recall from his autobiography also in clubs before he had a record contract.

[Chrome Dome]

As a relative newbie to trying to play jazz, I lack the knowledge to declare someone the "best" or "greatest". I love what I've heard by George, Wes, Grant Green, Kessel, Martino, Pass and countless others.

What fascinates me is that with many of these players, I listen and am amazed at the jaw-dropping timing, note choice, groove, swing, drive etc. that I hear in their music.

What makes George Benson unique, at least to me, is that he does all this and consistently leaves me grinning from ear to ear as well. There's just something so joyous in his playing that is utterly infectious and positive. I can't really explain it (and I suppose I'm talking about the earlier albums like "Cookbook" or the CTS records as that's what I have) but it's quite special and something that he seems to do way more than anyone else.

[Christian Miller]

Incredible time. In this forum we talk 95 percent about of notes, but musicality and expression is at least 50 percent about time and articulation.

I'd put that number a lot higher.

[Donplaysguitar]

I don't really like Benson. He's way to mellow.

He's one of the fieriest, most virtuosic jazz guitarists of all time, which is easily demonstrable with linked examples. I mean, who are you comparing him to?


Now, if you're talking about fuuuuusion or post fusion or whatever we want to call it these days, that's different.

[Donplaysguitar]

This is a jazz guitarist, mind you. Take Five was not exactly "Chamber Jazz" in his hands, was it?

[floatingpickup]

Wow

[Gabor]

This is a jazz guitarist, mind you. Take Five was not exactly "Chamber Jazz" in his hands, was it?

I was going to post exactly the same concert, but decided not to, to prevent starting a new wave of "even this is mellow". One of the greatest. Now I look for an other example :-)

Besides John McLaughlin's this is my favourite Naima interpretation

[Doug B]

That said, what I do dislike about Benson is the product endorsing: the overpriced Thomastik-Infeld strings, the overpriced Fender amp, etc.

What about the Ibanez George Benson Guitars? Do you dislike them?

Just wondering.

[Litterick]

No. Signature guitars are commonplace. But putting one's name to a host of products, everything in the chain, is vulgar.

[Doug B]

No. Signature guitars are commonplace. But putting one's name to a host of products, everything in the chain, is vulgar.

I see. So it's the quantity of endorsement that is vulgar?