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I received this message from Bruce Kunkel regarding the Solid Formed guitar and thought I would share it with you in this thread:
GIBSON SOLID-FORMED GUITARS
By BRUCE J. KUNKEL
During my many years at the Gibson Custom Division as a Master Luthier/ Designer and Creator
of Art Guitars, I was involved in special projects;
From the creation of one-of-a-kind art guitars , to short runs of special pieces such as the Bella Voce
Les Pauls, the SLASH Snake Pit hand carved Les Pauls, andTribute Guitars to major Gibson endorsers
such as Les Paul, Elvis Presley, Chet Atkins, Merle Travis and many others.
But probably the most technical and challenging of them all was the development of what would
become known as the SOLID-FORMED guitars. The idea wasn’t new and no one person can be credited
with its invention. I first became aware of it early in my Gibson career when James “Hutch” Hutchins
showed me a sample arch top that he was sent from Germany. It was a top that had not been carved in
the traditional manner but had been formed of thin material into a very high and beautiful arch. There
have been other manufacturers who have used this technique including some of the recent D’Angelicos .
From what I could glean, this technique involved steaming thin wood and clamping it in a mold
overnight to cool and form a memory of its new shape. This requires book matched material that is
formed separately and later jointed and glued up into a single piece top or back.
The technique I just described differs from the traditional carving method by bending thin wood
into shape rather than carving a thick billet of wood , leaving three fourths of the expensive material on
the floor. Additionally, the grain of the wood remains uninterrupted making transmission of vibration
much more efficient. The cost benefit is also considerable translating into three or four tops from the
billet that by the traditional carving technique would produce only one.
The Neck of the SOLID-FORMED guitar is also very innovative. It consists of three pieces ; a neck
shaft, a scarf jointed head stock, and a dovetailed heel block. Once again, by so doing the material cost
was greatly reduced from a traditional neck carved from one large billet of wood. Also, by scarf joining
the head stock, the problem of breakage that plagues traditional necks is reduced because the grain
runs straight through the headstock instead of being on an angle to it; known as short grain. The
dovetailed heel block is glued and fitted into a mahogany head block in the body in the traditional
manner.
Once I had produced hand made prototypes , a decision was made to move forward with an
engineering company to create molds, a steamer, a press and various assembly jigs to mass produce
these guitars at a great deal of expense. I worked to set procedures and trained a very talented luthier
named Allen Jones to head up production. Allen became very proficient at making these guitars and was
also a wonderful player and very dedicated to the project. Sadly, he passed away shortly after the
project was terminated.
My vision for the SOLID-FORMED guitars was to produce a great guitar, at a reduced cost, that would
also be far less wasteful of valuable wood resources. The project was never promoted properly. There
was no marketing done. The name SOLID-FORMED was never intended to be the actual name of the
guitar, but rather the process by which it was made. The modest price that was originally projected soon
ballooned to double and this new product was now competing head to head with the venerable Gibson
L-5. So, suffice it to say, it didn’t have a prayer and sales fell off a cliff.
The SOLID-FORMED project was abandoned after the production of around 125 guitars. There were
venetian cutaway 17” L series bodies. There were also 16” non cutaway bodies. Most were Cremona
Brown Bursts with “THE GIBSON” script logos inlayed in mother of pearl in the headstock. They had
unbound rosewood fingerboards with mother of pearl dot inlays. There were a few painted black and
some had a light colored ice tea burst. Allen Jones made a prototype with a double cutaway which I
have no idea what happened to it.
Every one of these guitars went across my bench. I personally set them up and signed the labels and
made sure they were right in every respect because I was so heavily involved in their creation and I
was totally committed to these SOLID-FORMED guitars.
If you own one of these rare guitars or have the opportunity to buy one I would not hesitate. I think
the appreciation for them will grow as time goes by. They are great sounding guitars that are made with
a very forward thinking method that I’m sure others will adopt as resources become more
precious and society becomes less wasteful.
Last edited by andyb; 07-13-2021 at 05:03 PM. Reason: alterations to text
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07-12-2021 12:26 PM
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No disrespect, but this is not news. Pressed solid arched tops have been made for decades.
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Dates back to at least the Renaissance period.
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I think that's what the Kunkel message is saying. He is saying *early* in his Gibson career he saw a guitar from Germany... all of which clearly shows he is aware that it's not a recent innovation.
Originally Posted by Woody Sound
Last edited by lawson-stone; 07-12-2021 at 02:18 PM.
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"Most technical and challenging..." Wow!, I guess.
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Pressed tops were Harmony and Kay's raison d'etre. I have a couple of them myself.
I think it is an interesting discussion how they compare to carved on a technical level. Of course a great piece of wood carved by a master who knows how to tone-tap is one thing, but a CNC-carved top or just a top carved by an apprentice or run-of-the-mill guy getting paid for piece work using a cheaper billet is another.
There are tensions inherent in wood that affect resonance when a box is constructed. There may actually be more tension in a steamed and reformed piece of wood than one which is in its natural orientation. Heat and humidity will affect each differently.
I wouldn't say the pressed tops are as toneful as a great carved top, but they are more resonant and "alive" than laminate tops. They are certainly easier to make than carved tops and probably even laminates, so I don't think should command super high prices, but that's my opinion.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 07-13-2021 at 01:50 PM.
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I have nothing other than experience with a few examples to back this up, but the Gibson Solid Formed guitars has something that no Harmony/Kay that I’ve ever played has. Everyone was a fine acoustic guitar, better than many hand-carved examples for sure. They certainly couldn’t compare to my ‘33 snakehead D’A or my ‘36 Epiphone DeLuxe, but all I’ve played are quite good.
It would be interesting to know what made it so challenging. Something about that may account for the quality. As a side note, the factory set up on all of these was excellent (all signed off by Mr. Kunkel).
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I consider the late Bill Hollenbeck to have been the master carver of tops. He had a system and theory taken from other sources like Barker and he also thought guitars should be physically able to stand up to stress. Therefore a very lightly build guitar with thin top and the lightest of braces and end blocks might not hold up as well. Hollenbeck noted that old Gibson guitars and D'angelico's were not necessarily light. They were not heavy and dead but just not feather light.
He believed that the top should be carved to allow the greatest about of vibration and movement that also produced a good sound. Carving the top and braces allowed him to control where the top was most sensitive. That normally should be right over where the bridge sits. When he carved the tops they were tuned only in the sense that on a tuning fork when he was done, the guitar produced the most resonance when you put the fork over the the exact middle of the bridge. I saw him do this many times in the shop. He would get it carved then fine tune with carving plane.
The next key is that the top when glued to the sides and then linings was sitting perfectly level in all places. He would set the top on the rim and then go around with a thin piece of paper that would show any gaps around the edge. If it all set perfect he then glued the top down to the rim. Same set up for the back although not as important as such. The idea then was the the top of the guitar was fully able to take the sound and produce the intended end. Anything and prevent the top from moving the free as the strings where played was a detriment to the overall volume and tone.
Finally he used end blocks that were a bit more than some to produce a guitar that would not be a fragile mess. His bracing system was a long diagonal brace with an extension brace that was up toward the cutaway. It was not X braced. It really was a modification of the Stromberg single bass bar. He again used a brace added to the strength of the guitar and it was likewise glued to top with no gaps it had to set perfect. He felt the guitar should be able to be push hard for rhythm and not choke and it should be sensitive to a light touch, so in effect dynamic. Within reason he could do this but sometimes the very best rhythm guitars that really barked loud would not be so sensitive to the light touch.
In other words carving the top was always a compromise as no one way to achieve all ends. The best fingerstyle guitars are not usually best for hard strumming or picking. A solid form top that is not carved will not ever really be able to get to this detail. Of course the real question if where that is even necessary. In the end there is a point of diminishing returns and enough we got a great guitar sound. Many press solid tops manage this quite well and sound good even better sometimes than the carved counterparts. That is the real mystery of the acoustic archtop guitar you just never know what the final product will sound like till you string it up.
I mention this because the real luthiers who "get" into the whole art and science of carving tops are in another world sometimes. They are in some ways like great jazz players they usually build guitars for. They have a sense and feeling of being in the "experience" of the wood. Like an artist who paints a beautiful picture. If you look at the great ones who have managed to make the grade they have another dimension that is hard to describe, yet they have to attend to business and earning a living. Then you find success and all of a sudden turning out one after another with the same qualities.............well it is a challenge.
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The Harmony, Kay, and other makers' pressed archtops, were typically @16" budget instruments. Same thing for a wide variety of pressed-top West German archtops, most of which were made in the period after WWII to the end of the 1960s. My experience with them is that the 17" instruments made this way tend to sound much better than their smaller siblings - the increased surface area and internal air volume make a big difference. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
The Gibson Solid Formed archtop certainly bears this out - the two that I have played sound great. The Roger Junior version (specifically developed for export to the UK in the 1960s) sounds great as well. The top plates of these were solid pressed spruce. The back plates were either solid pressed maple or laminated pressed maple. Here are a couple:Last edited by Hammertone; 07-13-2021 at 02:58 PM.
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Just so I know what we are discussing here, these are pressed single pieces of book-matched wood yes? Not pressed laminate like ES-175 and ES-335, yes?
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Yes, solid wood, no laminations, book-matched, glued up, pressed. Originally Posted by icr
Here's another pressed-top Roger Junior. IIRC, the pressed plates came from Kollitz. It would be great fun to compare one of these to a Gibson Solid Formed archtop:Last edited by Hammertone; 07-14-2021 at 02:06 AM.
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So do these formed tops feedback less than a carved top? I thought aside from the cheaper construction laminates were also less prone to feedback as well as less humidity problems.
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This sort of master artisan spiel is being used by marketing departments in many industries. My local supermarket has bags of potatoes illustrated with portraits of the growers.
Everything will be fine, so long as Kunkel's archtops are not sent to the Murphy Lab.
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JUST FYI, I wasn't joking about the bent tops being traced to the Renaissance period. Here's an entertaining and informative interview with Richard Jones, who specialises in making Renaissance viols (viola da gamba), copies of an instrument by Linarol, which survives intact from 1540.
The making of a viol
And here's one being played "a Mano" - without a bow - from the same period:
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My 17” Washburn J600k has a pressed spruce top. “Not a great guitar,” I say in my best deadpan. Feeds back if you look at it.
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Deacon Mark that's a nice description of how a master craftsman approaches his art. I don't think anyone would disagree this is the ultimate way to make a quality archtop guitar.
When you compare machine-carved guitars and guitars carved from less quality wood, with solid-formed, and laminates, then you get into various compromises that may or may not make a guitar sound great for a particular purpose.
I don't doubt that Gibson's guys approached making these guitars very carefully, but as Rob said nothing they did is innovative in any way, except maybe finding another way to get tight-a$$ed guitar aficionados to part with a bunch of Benjamins.
I'm sure they're nice guitars though.
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I have speculated about pressed tops being better in some respects than carved tops, because the runout is much less, and perhaps stiffer. I hasten to say that I have no actual experience with testing this speculation, it's just a thought experiment, and I may be entirely wrong about it. I've heard some 'solid formed' guitars that sounded very good though, including some on this site. The part about much less wastage is certainly correct, and I'm not sure that it really makes a huge difference with an instrument that is primarily played amplified. I am pretty sure that some pressed tops and backs are better than others, just as some carved tops are better than others, even from top luthiers. I certainly think there is room in the market for pressed top guitars.
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The recent (introduced in 2016 and now discontinued, IIRC) Epiphone Masterbuilt archtop collection guitars came with solid, pressed spruce tops, albeit with a very shallow arch. Despite what appeared to be nice build quality and lovely hardware in the ones I played, they sound like crap acoustically.
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But they look great! And unfortunately that's good enough for many in the buying public!
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My neighbor used to have a Hoffner pressed solid top archie, made in Germany, but it lacked volume and tone. All I had to do was change the strings and it woke up and began to sing like Ella.
I think ther are so many variables, like the wood itself, the set-up and condition of the guitar, it's finish, that it is hard to say what is better, but I have seen many that were great.
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If anyone is interested, I do own the double cutaway made by Allen Jones as a Solid Form prototype. Only one prototype has been made, the guitar is indeed signed by Allen Jones. Looks like an ES-335. Originally Posted by andyb
The sound is close to an ES-335, and the guitar does look wonderful.
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these are some of the worst guitars I have ever played. I’d rather have a Harmony Patrician. Originally Posted by Hammertone
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Wow, that's beautiful, fine top grain. Originally Posted by marcojx
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Im surprised no one has mentioned Peerless. They made excellent pressed top guitars at ridiculous low prices, the Monarchs in particular are a great bargain pre owned.
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Here are more pics, with the signature of Allen Jones. Also a look at the back. Originally Posted by marcojx
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