8-String Jazzbox / Archtop / ES-175 or 335 Clone To Convert to 6-String

[Saxophone Tall]

Charlie Hunter played Novax guitars for years, then worked with Wes Lambe (after Ralph Novak had to slow down due to health reasons), and now works with Wes and Clay Conner (a former student of Ralph Novak's). You may give Wes & Clay a call to see if they could do some kind of neck for you ...

[Not sure if Ralph still sells these, but you can cal him ...] FWIW, I played a Novax guitar for years, and never had problems getting used to the fanned-fret neck!

Marc

I will contact them. They seem to make solid body guitars. Since I know ZERO (maybe LESS than zero) about guitar building, is it possible to plop a custom neck on an existing Jazzbox? Isn't the neck *part* of the whole thing?

[marcwhy]

I will contact them. They seem to make solid body guitars. Since I know ZERO (maybe LESS than zero) about guitar building, is it possible to plop a custom neck on an existing Jazzbox? Isn't the neck *part* of the whole thing?

Novak, Lambe, and Conner are all archtop builders! I'm not a builder, either, but they're certainly worth a call.

[pcjazz]

Well.... I was told by several (not just one) luthier that it was NOT possible.

Not that I know anything (I don't). I'm new to guitar.

Do you know who did Ralph Patt's work? I'd like to contact him / her.

Thanks,

- Jeff

Ralph’s guitars pictured and described here:

The Major 3rd Tuning

Ralph is sadly no longer with us. His page has a link to Saul Koll’s site.

[Saxophone Tall]

Novak, Lambe, and Conner are all archtop builders! I'm not a builder, either, but they're certainly worth a call.

I will!

[Hammertone]

... Since I know ZERO (maybe LESS than zero) about guitar building, is it possible to plop a custom neck on an existing Jazzbox? Isn't the neck *part* of the whole thing?

I commend your enthusiasm. Any decent guitar builder can replace the neck on an archtop guitar with one built to your specifications. I think that is probably the easiest way for you to get what you want. The neck joint would remain the same. The string tension on the guitar would remain the same. There would be no structural issues at all. Widening the string spacing on a replacement wooden archtop bridge is dead easy. No need to change the tailpiece, IMO. Installing pickups with a wide enough magnetic field is easy, if the existing pickups aren't wide enough.

I'd recommend getting the work done locally instead of halfway across the world - that would allow you to actually preview the feel of the neck in person, before it is finished, to confirm that it is what you want and to allow for adjustments to the girth and profile of the neck. Where are you located?

You mention that you have a Cort Joe Beck - you could use that as your donor guitar - it's functional, cheap and has no future collector value whatsoever.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I will contact them. They seem to make solid body guitars. Since I know ZERO (maybe LESS than zero) about guitar building, is it possible to plop a custom neck on an existing Jazzbox? Isn't the neck *part* of the whole thing?

Set necks are replaceable - it’s done all the time. There’s very little you can’t do with a big enough hammer and a big enough checkbook. But, as more and more of us are politely suggesting, major work like a full tilt boogie neck swap plus new pickups, bridge and tailpiece to accommodate grossly wider string spacing will cost a lot of money, which you seem to have suggested earlier you were trying to avoid. You’d probably have to have the neck made if you want it grossly over 2” at the nut. The odds of finding such a set neck (new or used) are probably between slim and none.

That’s why I suggested converting a used 7 or 12 string - it’s cheap, easy, and functional, as long as you can find one with a neck wide enough to please you. But recutting a dovetail and setting a totally different neck from the original is a major project, and it takes a well experienced (or very lucky) luthier to do it right. If the money’s not a concern, the luthier of your choice will gladly make you exactly what you want. Many make basic models at low cost relative to their flagship guitars. But you seemed to reject the cost of a new Eastman, which is lower than any bespoke archtop I’ve ever seen.

Here’s another off-the-wall idea. Warmoth and others make bolt-on “super wide” necks, and the 7 string version can be bought with a 2” nut. I’d bet that fitting a solid heel to the neck dovetail in an archtop body and cutting a pocket for the neck would make it possible to adopt a bolt on neck at fairly low cost, if you can find a luthier intrigued enough by the idea to try it. Buy a cheap but decent old guitar in need of a neck reset, new frets and fingerboard work (or better yet, a new neck) and point the man or woman at it.

The easiest way to get what you want is to have it made to your specs. The cheapest way is to change nut, bridge and tailpiece on an inexpensive 12 or 7/8, but you’re almost certainly not going to find a full body archtop 12 or 7/8 with a neck wide enough for you at anything close to a project price. So you’re going to have to compromise on something.

[Saxophone Tall]

Ralph’s guitars pictured and described here:

The Major 3rd Tuning

Ralph is sadly no longer with us. His page has a link to Saul Koll’s site.

I'm checking that out, will contact Saul, and am curious about the MAJOR THIRD TUNING!

[Saxophone Tall]

Set necks are replaceable - it’s done all the time. There’s very little you can’t do with a big enough hammer and a big enough checkbook. But, as more and more of us are politely suggesting, major work like a full tilt boogie neck swap plus new pickups, bridge and tailpiece to accommodate grossly wider string spacing will cost a lot of money, which you seem to have suggested earlier you were trying to avoid. You’d probably have to have the neck made if you want it grossly over 2” at the nut. The odds of finding such a set neck (new or used) are probably between slim and none.

That’s why I suggested converting a used 7 or 12 string - it’s cheap, easy, and functional, as long as you can find one with a neck wide enough to please you. But recutting a dovetail and setting a totally different neck from the original is a major project, and it takes a well experienced (or very lucky) luthier to do it right. If the money’s not a concern, the luthier of your choice will gladly make you exactly what you want. Many make basic models at low cost relative to their flagship guitars. But you seemed to reject the cost of a new Eastman, which is lower than any bespoke archtop I’ve ever seen.

Here’s another off-the-wall idea. Warmoth and others make bolt-on “super wide” necks, and the 7 string version can be bought with a 2” nut. I’d bet that fitting a solid heel to the neck dovetail in an archtop body and cutting a pocket for the neck would make it possible to adopt a bolt on neck at fairly low cost, if you can find a luthier intrigued enough by the idea to try it. Buy a cheap but decent old guitar in need of a neck reset, new frets and fingerboard work (or better yet, a new neck) and point the man or woman at it.

The easiest way to get what you want is to have it made to your specs. The cheapest way is to change nut, bridge and tailpiece on an inexpensive 12 or 7/8, but you’re almost certainly not going to find a full body archtop 12 or 7/8 with a neck wide enough for you at anything close to a project price. So you’re going to have to compromise on something.

Lots of good info here!

1. A used Eastman 810 7 string MIGHT be wide enough - that is really the question. $400 to convert; quoted this by Guitars & Stuff in New Jersey. 12 strings appear to be less than a 2" nut, AFAICT.

But if that 7 string is NOT wide enough, then 5K + 12-18 month wait buys me a luthier for an 8 string width archtop.

Whereas anybody else could pay $1500 and have it in 2 days, for the same thing except the wide neck.

Hey, I'm used to this kind of thing at my height. My bad for not trying out for the NBA when I was young...

Since I'm new to guitar, I didn't think that plopping a solid body neck onto an archtop is possible. 2 luthiers have told me they it is NOT possible to widen a neck. So the search for the right "mix" has some interesting dovetails...

So far, Mr. Wu's China crew seems to have the best deal: $17000, 3 month wait, everything spec'd to my whim.

[Saxophone Tall]

I commend your enthusiasm. Any decent guitar builder can replace the neck on an archtop guitar with one built to your specifications. I think that is probably the easiest way for you to get what you want. The neck joint would remain the same. The string tension on the guitar would remain the same. There would be no structural issues at all. Widening the string spacing on a replacement wooden archtop bridge is dead easy. No need to change the tailpiece, IMO. Installing pickups with a wide enough magnetic field is easy, if the existing pickups aren't wide enough.

I'd recommend getting the work done locally instead of halfway across the world - that would allow you to actually preview the feel of the neck in person, before it is finished, to confirm that it is what you want and to allow for adjustments to the girth and profile of the neck. Where are you located?

You mention that you have a Cort Joe Beck - you could use that as your donor guitar - it's functional, cheap and has no future collector value whatsoever.

I'm presently in Woodstock New York, about 2 hours North of Manhattan. Converting the Cort Joe Beck was my initial idea. It's really all the archtop guitar I need right now. It sounds great! But it's like playing a piccolo. Tiny!

My (VERY limited) experience with luthiers is "NO" to widening / replacing the neck.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I'm checking that out, will contact Saul, and am curious about the MAJOR THIRD TUNING!

It was created to facilitate playing 12 tone music (aka serialism), eg many of Schoenberg’s compositions. A main principle of 12 tone melody is that you don’t repeat a note until the other 11 have been played. This was one way of assuring that no note was “more important” than any other. I don’t worry about insulting notes by not playing them enough, and I can’t imagine going through the trouble of learning to play anything else on one, although it’s certainly possible.

There are some 12 tone jazz compositions, but no one’s going to call one on a gig or request one at a wedding or club. Pieces like Brubeck’s So Lonely (on the album Indian Summer) are technically in the 12 tone school, but the don’t require or benefit from altered tuning.

[Saxophone Tall]

It was created to facilitate playing 12 tone music (aka serialism), eg many of Schoenberg’s compositions. A main principle of 12 tone melody is that you don’t repeat a note until the other 11 have been played. This was one way of assuring that no note was “more important” than any other. I don’t worry about insulting notes by not playing them enough, and I can’t imagine going through the trouble of learning to play anything else on one, although it’s certainly possible.

There are some 12 tone jazz compositions, but no one’s going to call one on a gig or request one at a wedding or club. Pieces like Brubeck’s So Lonely (on the album Indian Summer) are technically in the 12 tone school, but the don’t require or benefit from altered tuning.

Thanks; that could save me a lot of time trying it out! As a sax player, I'm looking to make the guitar as easy as possible for me. I'm don't "get" the 4ths + a single 3rd set up. Makes no sense to me Seems to encourage "pattern playing." Whereas on sax, everything is equal.

I played with Dave Brubeck.

[Saxophone Tall]

I just looked at Saul Koll's site - NOT accepting custom orders at this time.... Even if did, average wait is 18 months.

[pcjazz]

I just looked at Saul Koll's site - NOT accepting custom orders at this time.... Even if did, average wait is 18 months.

Hammertone’s advice, above, makes the most sense to me.

[pcjazz]

It was created to facilitate playing 12 tone music (aka serialism), eg many of Schoenberg’s compositions. A main principle of 12 tone melody is that you don’t repeat a note until the other 11 have been played. This was one way of assuring that no note was “more important” than any other. I don’t worry about insulting notes by not playing them enough, and I can’t imagine going through the trouble of learning to play anything else on one, although it’s certainly possible.

There are some 12 tone jazz compositions, but no one’s going to call one on a gig or request one at a wedding or club. Pieces like Brubeck’s So Lonely (on the album Indian Summer) are technically in the 12 tone school, but the don’t require or benefit from altered tuning.

Actually Ralph used it for everything (including Charlie Christian solos!) except straight swing rhythm, for which he kept a six-string archtop in regular tuning. (I corresponded with him for a couple of years before he died.) That said, I would not recommend a non-standard tuning to someone who is not already familiar with the instrument, at least for jazz. There are so many excellent learning materials and teachers for standard tuning that it doesn’t seem sensible to jump in the deep end with anything else.

[Saxophone Tall]

Actually Ralph used it for everything (including Charlie Christian solos!) except straight swing rhythm, for which he kept a six-string archtop in regular tuning. (I corresponded with him for a couple of years before he died.) That said, I would not recommend a non-standard tuning to someone who is not already familiar with the instrument, at least for jazz. There are so many excellent learning materials and teachers for standard tuning that it doesn’t seem sensible to jump in the deep end with anything else.

Cool that you communicated with him!

Yeah, it would screw up what I know of chord voicings on guitar. It might be worth a try, anyway. The quicker I can translate my sax and piano ability to guitar, the better. Whatever works, you know?

AFAICT, the "standard tuning is *made* for folk tunes, not Jazz. Am I right? Raph said the "thirds" tuning was NOT good for folk tunes.

As big as my hands are, they do NOT stretch like a seasoned guitarist's do (up and down the frets), so would the *thirds*( tuning facilitate voicings (make them "closer" together)? It seems like it would...

I think I'll make up a chart....

[pcjazz]

Cool that you communicated with him!

Yeah, it would screw up what I know of chord voicings on guitar. It might be worth a try, anyway. The quicker I can translate my sax and piano ability to guitar, the better. Whatever works, you know?

AFAICT, the "standard tuning is *made* for folk tunes, not Jazz. Am I right? Raph said the "thirds" tuning was NOT good for folk tunes.

As big as my hands are, they do NOT stretch like a seasoned guitarist's do (up and down the frets), so would the *thirds*( tuning facilitate voicings (make them "closer" together)? It seems like it would...

I think I'll make up a chart....

You’ll find some charts on Ralph’s site. Standard tuning is classical tuning. There are many folk tunings, mostly open, that are generally unsuitable for jazz. One of (several) advantages of standard tuning is that you can learn from others and don’t have to reinvent the wheel each time. Thirds tuning is easier than standard for close cluster voicings but for practically everything else standard works well enough. There is no perfect system for tuning the guitar but standard tuning embodies a widely usable set of compromises for sophisticated harmonic and melodic music. And it is what almost everyone uses, so there is a deep pool of well-understood practice to dip into.

Anyway, my point in mentioning Ralph and his guitars was not to advocate for thirds tuning but to show a real-world example of replacing archtop neck and/or fingerboard for wider spacing. If your luthier insists that it cannot be done you should find another luthier. I believe there are several well-known ones in your neck of the woods.

Finally, your hands will learn how to make the necessary stretches as you,work with the instrument. It will take some time. Don’t overdo it. A good teacher or coach can help with the ergonomics and keep you from hurting yourself.

[Saxophone Tall]

You’ll find some charts on Ralph’s site. Standard tuning is classical tuning. There are many folk tunings, mostly open, that are generally unsuitable for jazz. One of (several) advantages of standard tuning is that you can learn from others and don’t have to reinvent the wheel each time. Thirds tuning is easier than standard for close cluster voicings but for practically everything else standard works well enough. There is no perfect system for tuning the guitar but standard tuning embodies a widely usable set of compromises for sophisticated harmonic and melodic music. And it is what almost everyone uses, so there is a deep pool of well-understood practice to dip into.

I have to figure out what works for me. Time will tell.

For reference, I play golf. "Standard" club fitting practice is plus 2" AT MOST, no matter how tall one is. I couldn't play worth a damn until a retired pro basketball player (Bill Laimbeer, who is 6' 11") told me to have my clubs made plus FIVE inches. It was tough to find a pro shop that would do it, but I did. And..... I now hit the ball long and straight, and got my first hole in one!

I'm an "outside the box" musician. On sax, I don't copy anybody else (99% of players do). Ditto piano, although I cop other player's bags as far as techniques go (ragtime, stride, etc.). Guitar? Anything that will help; I'm embryonic!

Anyway, my point in mentioning Ralph and his guitars was not to advocate for thirds tuning but to show a real-world example of replacing archtop neck and/or fingerboard for wider spacing. If your luthier insists that it cannot be done you should find another luthier. I believe there are several well-known ones in your neck of the woods.

Can you recommend any? I've been coming here on and off over the decades to visit my brother, but only moved here (from LA) a month ago.

As to the thirds tuning, well, it caught my eye! I'd like to investigate Joni Mitchell's tunings as well.

Finally, your hands will learn how to make the necessary stretches as you,work with the instrument. It will take some time. Don’t overdo it. A good teacher or coach can help with the ergonomics and keep you from hurting yourself.

My hands are "set" for sax and piano, and have been so for fifty+ years. I don't know whether they will ever stretch as a guitarist's do. I am VERY familiar with the ergos of playing, and how not to hurt oneself. For piano, the book "Playing Less Hurt" is a "bible" of sorts. My hands are priceless!

I have to say it was a "mind blow" to discover that my giant hands are not reaching some chord voicings easily! Then I see that guitarist's do Spock's "Vulcan" thing easily, which I do not.

[Saxophone Tall]

Not impossible - Ralph Patt had the neck/fingerboard on his archtops widened to accommodate 8 strings, so no reason why the same could not be done to increase the string spacing for 6 strings. Requires new nut, bridge and probably tailpiece as well.

Well, I just emailed Ralph ... only to get a "mail undeliverable" message. So, I googled him, and sadly discovered that he passed 11 years ago.

Do you have any idea who widened his guitar necks?

Thank you.

- Jeff Newton

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Yeah, it would screw up what I know of chord voicings on guitar. It might be worth a try, anyway. The quicker I can translate my sax and piano ability to guitar, the better. Whatever works, you know? AFAICT, the "standard tuning is *made* for folk tunes, not Jazz. Am I right? Raph said the "thirds" tuning was NOT good for folk tunes. As big as my hands are, they do NOT stretch like a seasoned guitarist's do (up and down the frets), so would the *thirds*( tuning facilitate voicings (make them "closer" together)? It seems like it would...I think I'll make up a chart....

Tuning in consecutive major thirds gives the player a continous 2 octave+ chromatic scale across the strings in each position, using fingers 1 to 4 on each adjacent string (above the open position, in which the first note of the 4 semitones is not fretted). The common 6 string tuning for this format is E-Ab-C-E-Ab-C. This was created to facilitate 12 tone playing and was not considered for general playing. It could have a few interesting "benefits" for jazz players - e.g. you can play a continous 2 octave chromatic scale in the same position, and 3 note chord forms can be played an octave apart in the same position by moving the same fretting 3 strings over. You can also play some inversions by moving any fretted note three strings in either direction while keeping the other two where they are. So some inside inversions may be a bit easier to play in major 3rd tuning.

But it looks to me like far more is lost than gained, including commonly used close harmonies. You lose several minor forms because the open intervals are major, e.g. you can't even play a 1-5-7-3b combination let alone a 7 flat 5 like Bb-E-F#-C or a 13-flat-9 like Bb-E-A-C# with all notes in the same octave. Full, rich forms like a barred minor 9th across 2 octaves (e.g. played G-D-A-Bb-D-G in G) are impossible to play, and you couldn't then walk the A down to an F# and an F and move to the Cm9 (played C-Eb-D-G) with a major 3rd tuning. Walking bass lines beyond a minor third would be more difficult - you couldn't walk a line up a full octave using only 3 strings without changing position. But using 4 strings for your bass lines would leave you only 1 or 2 strings for your chords & melody. Imagine having a bass pedalboard that only spanned a fifth - boring!

It seems to me that learning the guitar is no more or less difficult in one tuning than another, as every tuning has limitations. But there are reasons to learn alternative tunings - if you need it, you learn to do it. I play slide in standard tuning on a standard guitar, but I've been playing open G on my resonators for decades and open D or open E on most lap steels. My favorite lap steel has a DeArmond quick-change tailpiece, so I'm using multiple tunings on the same guitar. We can play rapid, clean chromatic scales from the nut to the end of the fretboard in standard tuning, with no more effort than it takes to change positions. There's no shortage of clever and beautiful inversions on a standard six string. Trying to learn alternative tunings before getting a pretty firm grip on standard tuning seems to me to be a path toward mastering none.

I ran into Jimmy Bruno one night at a club shortly after I'd switched to 7 strings for all my gigs. At that time, he was still playing a Benedetto 7 but was clearly not truly one with it. He offered me one bit of advice - if I wanted to really learn to play the 7 well, I should sell all my 6 string guitars and only play a 7. He never did migrate all the way and was back on 6 by about 2010, so his advice was both correct and heartfelt. I offer the same advice to someone just getting into serious guitar playing. Pick a tuning and learn it before trying alternatives. Standard tuning works best for almost every one of us, so it'll probably work best for you too.

[pcjazz]

Well, I just emailed Ralph ... only to get a "mail undeliverable" message. So, I googled him, and sadly discovered that he passed 11 years ago.

Do you have any idea who widened his guitar necks?

Thank you.

- Jeff Newton

See,the thirds tuning page on his website (linked above).

[Jimmy blue note]

and Mark Campellone as well is second to none and might be interested in the challenge.

Not an option. He works on his own template and has more than enough work. I'd asked him about a 7 string option and that in itself was outside the template of his work process, which I totally get.
You get good enough at doing what you do so you can afford NOT to do those jobs that are creative challenges without a commensurate "throw a wrench in the works" compensation.

[Saxophone Tall]

Again, great advice from a very experienced player (you). So, thank you!

Intellectually, I can see some + and - for the 3rds tuning. Maybe down the line.....

For the moment, my guitar focus is on interfacing with the instrument: finding the "Goldilocks" size (which includes scale ... 24.75? 25? 25.5) as well as fret board width, improvising (I have absolute pitch, so I can do this intuitively), learning some melodies to simple Jazz standards (ones that I can play in my sleep on my saxophones), and grappling with chords, which are by far the hardest thing for me on guitar. For one thing, as a pianist, I don't use block chords much (organ, yeah...). I use Bill Evans rootless voicings or shell voicings (10ths, because I can with large hands), etc. So, finding that I have to "make up" simple 251 voicings that my hands will mesh with is well, an interesting challenge!

[Saxophone Tall]

Not an option. He works on his own template and has more than enough work. I'd asked him about a 7 string option and that in itself was outside the template of his work process, which I totally get.
You get good enough at doing what you do so you can afford NOT to do those jobs that are creative challenges without a commensurate "throw a wrench in the works" compensation.

Well that rules him out. From what I can tell, USA luthiers are busy, backed up and, good for them!

And so far, the Chinese team of Dr.Wu & company seems like the most viable option if I want larger than the Eastman 7 string.

Me? I like creative challenges. After all, I'm *starting* guitar at 63! Keeps the mind young! I know music like I know my name, but guitar? Not so much, which is a good thing for the 'ol grey matter.

BTW, one of my longtime pianists (to my sax) goes by "Jimmy Blues."

[Hammertone]

I'm presently in Woodstock New York, about 2 hours North of Manhattan. Converting the Cort Joe Beck was my initial idea. It's really all the archtop guitar I need right now. It sounds great! But it's like playing a piccolo. Tiny!
My (VERY limited) experience with luthiers is "NO" to widening / replacing the neck.

You are within a three hour drive from at least 100 competent luthiers. Your project is nutty enough to intrigue at least a few of them.

There are several builders on this forum. I'm sure they'll contact you directly if this interests them.

Here are a couple of very wise and experienced guys who might be amused enough by your idea to help you by re-necking your Cort. No idea how busy they are. Neither of them are overly mercenary about this stuff, in my experience:
Alan Carruth - Newport NH - [email protected] | (603) 863-7064
Bernie Lehmann - Rochester NY - [email protected] | (585) 902-8663

You could contact the Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans (ASIA) and ask for a list of local members.
Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
or this forum:
Official Luthiers Forum! • Index page

Here's an old and not necessarily accurate list of luthiers.
More such lists exist on the net.
You can go through it for those close to you and as if anyone here knows any of them.
Luthiers Around the World - USA Listing

[Saxophone Tall]

You are within a three hour drive from at least 100 competent luthiers. Your project is nutty enough to intrigue at least a few of them.

Here are a couple of very wise and experienced guys who might be amused enough by your idea to help you by re-necking your Cort. No idea how busy they are. Neither of them are overly mercenary about this stuff, in my experience:
Alan Carruth - Newport NH - [email protected] | (603) 863-7064
Bernie Lehmann - Rochester NY - [email protected] | (585) 902-8663

You could contact the Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans (ASIA) and ask for a list of local members.
Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
or this forum:
Official Luthiers Forum! • Index page

Here's an old and not necessarily accurate list of luthiers.
More such lists exist on the net.
You can go through it for those close to you and as if anyone here knows any of them.
Luthiers Around the World - USA Listing

Thanks, I will check them out! Interesting that my project is perceived as "nutty." Nearly everything in my life has to be resized or is difficult to find. Try walking into a mall (if you can find one that's still open...) and go to all the shoe stores, asking for size 16. I guarantee you won't find one pair!