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I came across a 76 Gibson L5 in great shape at a local shop. No case, no pick guard, and no label inside the body. Price? $3500! Played it for 30 minutes and fell in love. Does that one thing so well. Not sure though if I'll go for it. Thoughts?
Joe
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02-23-2010 10:46 AM
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No label inside the body??????I would get that professionally inspected before purchasing, just to better verify that it is a Gibson and not a knock off. As well as see if there are any issues with the build/construction, particularly inside. How's the arch holding up?
Originally Posted by bbjonz
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Hi,
If you love it, so buy it, anyhow you don´t play with labels. If it is a knock off, you can smell it... Cheers juuso1...
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Check the serial number that's on the back of the headstock.
Gibson Support - Serial Number Search
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The lack of label emits an odor. Originally Posted by juuso1
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Absolutely - don't even think about it until someone VERY knowledgeable has examined the guitar. $3500 is not realistic.
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Maybe for a Norlin era 2nd with pickguard missing, and headstock or other significant repair. Or it could be knock off. You have my curiosity up. Originally Posted by randyc
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Is it me, are these inflated prices dying a natural death? I've suspected for a while now that the cream is gone, the collectors have their goodies, and everybody's trading the scraps around. I was at another forum, and someone posted photographs from the Nashville Guitar Show (as I understand it, held in Franklin TN). They looked like pictures taken at the local flea market -- endless low-end gear for frantic prices. For example, a '69 gold top Deluxe for $9500: now, I just sold a '70, for a lot less than that, and I thought I did all right (I made money, after playing it for twelve years, the new owner is very happy with it, and I bought a new Mesa/Boogie bass amp with the proceeds).
There's nothing wrong with a dealer making a profit, and nothing wrong with charging what the market will bear; nor is there anything wrong with a prudent buyer walking when the price is not directly related to the intrinsic value. From that perspective I'd say a Norlin-era L5 would be worth around a grand less than the asking price (not that I'm any expert), with its doubtful provenance a major consideration in not paying a premium. And, I'll add, anyone who has followed my posts knows that I'm no low-baller. Fair is fair, to buyer and seller.
A NEW L-5, the last time I checked, will set you back ten big ones, and I am sure it's worth it -- for those who want and need that sort of instrument. I would expect professionals to go for them -- especially so, since, [warning: opinion being inserted] with modern technology, genuine acoustically viable archtops are on the wane.
On the other hand, I would guess that the market for the '76 is, essentially, US: not high rollers, not collectors, not in the habit of blowing wads of money on non-essentials.
Its lack of a label and other anomalies diminish its "investment" value -- you're being asked to take a chance that it will retain its worth in a shrinking market. If it's a player, then, great: but intelligent adults don't spend that kind of money on a player.
Maybe I'm just getting to be too damn old and cranky to go with common wisdom, but I confidently await the deflation of the "vintage" bubble for the simple reason that many, I believe, are like me, and know that we can find a much less expensive example through patience. If everything we look at is in the mid four figures and above, I'll bet a lot of us will bail out altogether and line up a Carvin's and Heritage's door.
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What about the vintage market for solid body guitars? If you think archtops are inflated (I do), how much does a '59 Les Paul Standard go for? $200,000?
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More likely, that's what they USED to go for. As I said, the primo stuff is gone. Now we're seeing refinishes, Deluxes routed out for full-size humbuckers, and mutts. It's an occasion when a real 58-60 LP comes on the market: the Les Paul guys pee down both legs when someone lists one on eBay. Maybe they're worth it. I'm not the guy to ask.
You can't blame the dealers and traders for trying to keep the bubble inflated, but the gear I'm seeing is, as I said before, less than grade-A. And how many sane adults are going to spend several grand on a Musicmaster, or a Les Paul Jr, or a Melody Maker, unless they have a really personal connection with a particular model?
The local dealer, who loves vintage gear (and who has helped me get pretty good returns on a couple of older electrics I've sold) tells me that a lot of traders are having to eat premium prices they paid prior to the recession -- they are hoping they can wait it out, and the market will come back full-blown, but historically, that's not what happens. Once a "collectible" stops being collectible, it's old news. Sure, a lot of Dutch made killings on tulips, but a lot more got sucked in and lost. Name the fad, and trace its history, and you'll find a trail of rapidly escalating prices, followed by a frenzy of trading, ending soon enough in the disappearance of the perceived value.
Like I say, I'm not the guy to ask. I don't even believe that new guitars aren't as good as old ones. My 2000 335 is perfect for me (as perfect as an electric without a Bigsby can be, anyhow). I love the fact that the manufacturers are reissuing the real deal, because I don't much care for anything introduced to the market after the early '60s. As long as they are making the guitars as close as possible to the old ones, why not get one with a warranty and without a neck likely to need a reset in the near future?
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I completely agree with the assessment that the Nashville Guitar Show (in Franklin, TN) this past weekend seemed like a flea market, although a majority of the guitars were Fenders and Gibsons with very few amplifiers in attendance. I was there and posted some pictures on the other forum. Overall, most of the guitars were average or below condition at extraordinarily high prices. I even commented on the other forum that there was very little, if anything, that really jumped out as "Wow! that is great!... I gotta have it." I think I stay up to date on vintage guitars/amp current values for Fenders, Gibsons, and a few others and it seemed to be that the price as marked was a good 15-25% higher than I have seen elsewhere. Perhaps this is to allow markdown, but for me it made me just keep walking by the booth. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Last edited by Steve Z; 02-23-2010 at 05:04 PM.
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Yeah, it seems to defy common sense. I've been browsing eBay, just to see if there's anything there to prove my point. I found two 59-60 LPs for six figures (one from Norman's Rare Guitars, an instigator of the whole "vintage" thing), and, to my surprise, several early '60s SG/LPs in the $20-30K range! Those are guitars that have zero association with famous players, bands, styles of music or anything else -- they're just OLD!
Lots and lots of LPs, with a personal association with someone famous bumping the price x10. Mostly, lots of LPs with large prices and no bids.
I'm not gloating, by any means -- I had my own fling with a Les Paul, and now I'm into my other Gibsons -- but it's notable that there is a lot of action surrounding guitars that aren't egregiously overpriced.
When I was in high school, my brother worked for a guy who had a clutch and brake shop in the corner of big engine rebuilding outfit -- he made a living just doing referrals -- who was also an old school hot rodder. He had a lovely '29 A on deuce rails (back when there was no glass and no replicas) running a small-block at the local drag strip (Colton, for you other old timers). One day a proud restorer drove in with a 1917 Model T touring car, which immediately attracted a large crowd. Our friend looked at it from across the shop floor, snorted, and said, "those things were no damn good when they were new!"
That's the situation with a lot of the stuff being offered as vintage currently.
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02-24-2010, 11:00 AM #13Archie Guest
Exactly! I remember playing an SG Custom back in about 1971 and thinking it was terrible. If someone hasn't smashed it in frustration since then, it would surely sell for big bucks today.
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Hi Everyone,
Sorry to post and disappear. Couple of interesting turns on this. First, I visited a couple of shops in Phoenix and was a bit groggy after a long day. This L-5 was at the Guitar Center on Elliot Rd in Phoenix. Why do I remember this now? The sales guy called a day later to say he did some research and that Gibson didn't use labels in '76!!! Uhh, right--did not find that same info on line. Second, I did take a pic with my iPhone of the headstock. It's blurry, but I seem to recall the number beginning with two zeros. I didn't notice any headstock or other repairs. The holes for the pick guard were there, though, so it had it at one time. It was a cool guitar, but absent convincing proof of authenticity it's hard to justify spending that kind of money, especially if it is difficult to flip later without losing money.
This is why I've backed off buying vintage guitars...
Joe
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I can't make out the number. However I don't recall Gibson using decal style serial numbers. Most Gibsons I've owned had the numbers stamped.
You should check that Gibson web-site I posted the link to if you're serious about this instrument. I've also never seen a Gibson without a label.
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Strange tuners and much too close to the top end of the headstock. Doesn't seem right to me.
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Gibson discontinued the orange label in the late '60s, but continued using different labels, with no ending date that I could find. Duchossoir makes reference to white-and-purple labels on electrics, and white-and-orange labels on acoustics, but with no dates or other details.
The serial number was printed on a decal that included the phrase "Made in USA" from '75-'77; a '76 Gibson would have a serial number prefix of "00" ("99" for '75, "06" for '77) assuming that it never had the neck repaired or any multitude of other reasons it would have something different. That sequence was used only for those three years, making them the only Norlin instruments that can reliably be dated from the serial number. The photo isn't clear enough to tell.
Duchossoir examined the factory ledgers, and concluded that the numbers were assigned at random, with many duplications.
In addition, I have heard that when Norlin turned over the keys to the successor owners, somehow the password to the computer records that supposedly had all the SN information was not transferred, making the entire 1969-82 era of serial numbers useless for dating purposes. I had a Les Paul Deluxe that I was able to narrow down to 1970-1, based on various variations of features like the headstock logo and so on; I checked the Gibson web site and the best guess they could come up with was "1969-1982!"
The neck will have a volute behind the nut, and, if the bridge is the factory standard issue, it will be a compensated ivory saddle on an ebony base, much like the Johnny Smith. A lot of players substituted tune-a-matic bridges, or ordered them from the factory in place of the standard piece.
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Excellent information! Thanks for that. I do recall that "00" prefix mainly because I thought it odd. Don't remember if it had a volute, but I didn't check. I'm pretty sure it has a tune-o-matic on an ebony base, and I think the base had some inlays, but don't recall the shape.
You know, the thing that's most puzzling is why GC would undervalue that guitar given the overvalue everything else. Strange indeed...
Joe
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Check the number of screws in the truss rod cover... it should have two screws. The knockoffs have 3...
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Haven't been back to check. It's in Phoenix and I'm in Tucson. But I'm pretty sure I'll be up there at the end of March and if it's still there I'll report back with extra info.
Joe
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That used to be true.. knockoffs are getting better. I saw a Les Paul this fall that I would NEVER have been able to tell it was a clone if I just had pics. Originally Posted by Scotto
In person, you notice the binding is too white. The nut material isnt right. Overspray in the corners. The colour of the gold plate on the pickups..
Sometimes you cant quite put your finger on it..
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I've never seen a L-5CES or any other Gibson with the "model" number stamped on the headstock. There should be nothing on the back except the serial number. Shame on the Guitar Center hacks for pushing this, if it were me I'd report the guy that called you to the BBB. (The entire store probably has that attitude!)
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