Gibson acquires MESA Boogie

[HeyNow]

...
And I don't think modelers have taken over yet. Rock guitar players are a conservative bunch. If you want to look at the number of TGP posts, assuming
In any case I think modelers in the various forms will continue to trend higher. And tube amps will lose market share. Because modelers keep getting better and cheaper. And that indicates an outcome in any market.

What modelers have you used?

I think modelers that you can get at cheap price points are way better than ones you could have got say 10 years ago.

But, at the very high end, it’s a different story. Fractal Audio - the price of their new top offerings has been the same $2500. And they’ve had real bad rollout issues with their latest offering. Bugs that they haven’t been able to fix for months. So, they are not getting cheaper, and audio and feature-wise they are better, but overall product is not necessarily better as parts of it are unusable.

Digital progress is not linear here. It’s asymptotic. Getting that last 10% of audio quality in a stable platform will be very difficult, at any price point. Making it within an average musician’s budget will be even harder.

then, you add the fact that your modeler is obsolete every few years (very little resale value)

[Wildcat]

I remember that video cause a ruckus on this site. From donate to underprivileged kids to corporate rights to do what ever they feel is necessary. Surprised you found it.

OTE=BigDaddyLoveHandles;1088501]Mesa Boogie amps are next...

[/QUOTE]

[Stringswinger]

Hmm.. my 1980 Fender Concert hasn't increased many fold in value in the past few decades and I've had it since new. Or were you just referring to amps made in the 60's/70's that old guys buy and over time have even more limited availability? Overall seems a 2000 (or so) model Fender DeLuxe is still in the realm of the used prices we're used to. In any case, Gibson L5's have certainly gone up in value. And now they don't make them any more. I don't think I would buy an archtop company.

And I don't think modelers have taken over yet. Rock guitar players are a conservative bunch. If you want to look at the number of TGP posts, assuming no group bias and that the split represents new gear purchases (it doesn't but we'll skip to the chase), you have to look at the new tube amp purchase threads and inquiries vs modelers as they have changed over the last 5 years or so. Modelers growing faster than tube amps? That's the metric. Not the total number on all topics.

In any case I think modelers in the various forms will continue to trend higher. And tube amps will lose market share. Because modelers keep getting better and cheaper. And that indicates an outcome in any market.

The only Fender amps that have skyrocketed have been the ones that are light enough for aging boomers to carry. Fender Concerts (both vintage and the Rivera era examples), like Older Mesa Mark amps and Fender Twin Reverbs are actually pretty cheap to what they were worth in the 80's when you adjust for inflation.

Tube amps have their fans and will continue to do so moving forward. Mesa has straddled the past while adding the present and future when it comes to tube amps. Smart move on Gibson's part, IMO. Just like buying Epiphone in the 50's was pretty smart.

[Wildcat]

Understand your consternation. However reading the article Randy the owner will continue to work with Gibson building amps. Regardless of scepticism, I think it's a win/win for both parties involved.

So now Boogies will become lifestyle amps? Worse quality and triple the price...?

End of an era....

[Wildcat]

Gibson might be going public? Hell I'll buy that IPO even for a short term hold.

My first thought is that, in terms of eventually issuing an IPO and taking Gibson public, this is certainly an interesting move.

[Wildcat]

The market for guitars went through the roof for 2020. Lots of younger people buying during pandemic. Fender recorded highest sales for 2020 ever.

My first thought is that, in terms of eventually issuing an IPO and taking Gibson public, this is certainly an interesting move.

[HeyNow]

The only Fender amps that have skyrocketed have been the ones that are light enough for aging boomers to carry. Fender Concerts (both vintage and the Rivera era examples), like Older Mesa Mark amps and Fender Twin Reverbs are actually pretty cheap to what they were worth in the 80's when you adjust for inflation.

In recent years (5 years), that's mostly correct. The context was 'few decades'. There are some heavier amps that have gone up considerably in the past few decades. The 5f6a Bassman (tweed 4x10) is about $7k for one in decent shape, high power tweed twin is $25k, brown super is around $2500. That's not how much they were running for in the 90s.

I still sometimes think of the brown Super I was late by 15 mins to buy. $1500 about 7 years ago. Even then, I had to think about the price, and of course missed out.

Early silverface (67-68, same circuit as blackface) have crept up to their blackface counterparts as people have become savvy to them being the same amp in different clothing. You could get a 67-68 Vibrolux Reverb for $1000 a few years ago, while the blackface was $3k.

People wouldn't touch a 67-68 Dual Showman Reverb for $400 7-8 years ago even though they were/are just a blackface Twin Reverb in head format. Now they're double that.

You're right, the blackface Twin Reverb's, Vibrolux Reverb's have stayed pretty flat the past years. Tweed Deluxe, brown Vibrolux have topped out at $3k and stayed there for about 8-10 years.

The Concert, in all years, even brown and blackface, were never highly valued, for whatever reason. Same with the blackface Vibrolux non-reverb.

I have no skin in the game. Not trying to promote prices. I only have a 67 Deluxe Reverb that is beat to hell and I have no plans to ever sell.

[Wildcat]

Check out the Mesa Boogie's California tweed amplifier.

Would be nice if they brought back the tweed amps.

[HeyNow]

The market for guitars went through the roof for 2020. Lots of younger people buying during pandemic. Fender recorded highest sales for 2020 ever.

I'd have to look at the latest financials, but I think Gibson is at least a decade away from an IPO. They filed for Ch 11 bankruptcy 2.5 years ago.

I don't think IPO is in their future. KKR will extract whatever they can from the legacy and sell. Get whatever they can out of it.

Even if young people buy more guitars, I don't think they're going to pay $8k for a Les Paul. Gibson has basically doubled their asking price on Historic's in the past 6-7 years.

[Dennis D]

...I still want one that looks like this - -( no affiliation etc ).....oh well.....

Mesa Boogie Express 5:25 Limited Edition 12" Combo | Reverb

[ThatRhythmMan]

As always, condition can change the value considerably. Tweed Deluxes for example can go well over 3k now.

Fender Deluxe 1954 Tweed - 100% Original Collectible | Reverb

[starjasmine]

My Boogie just became a Pre-Gibson Boogie.

Wow, computer goes down for a couple days and I come back and read THIS...!

When I read the title of this thread, my immediate reaction was "Oh, no!!!!"

+1 on the hopes that Gibson does not drive this company into the ground. And, yeah, good for Randy, and I hope Mike B is well taken care of in this little shuffle, as well.

[GNAPPI]

Gibson diversifying, now where have I heard that before?

[Alter]

From all the companies Gibson did buy in the past, is there a single one that was better afterwards? Can't think of one, all the ones I know were practically either ruined or degraded their quality (and target market) a lot.

[Wildcat]

Epiphone

From all the companies Gibson did buy in the past, is there a single one that was better afterwards? Can't think of one, all the ones I know were practically either ruined or degraded their quality (and target market) a lot.

[TedBPhx]

Mesa doesn't offer any digital amps, afik.
.

While not digital my Mesa Rosette is a solid state amp. 300watts Class D. 30lbs. There is a built in, meh, reverb that may be digital.

[Lobomov]

So much discussion yet I doubt that many on this forum play Mesa amps ?? ... I could be wrong tho?

But the thing is this .. The owner of Mesa has profited immensely from the sale and can retire to lead a very good life .. While Gibson f...... up the Mesa Boogie brand might well be the best possible outcome, if we take a "big capitalist corporation bad, small one good" holier than thou world view

A f... up of the Mesa Boogie brand will leave room for the smaller boutique amp builders to grow their businesses and give us something fresh instead of something stale.

I can't really see how this in anyway can be seen as bad?

[Alter]

Epiphone

Epiphone was a first rate company, an actual competitor to Gibson when bought. Soon after they became student grade instruments, mostly targeted towards beginner and low budget market. How would that be considered better? Of course one can argue that they may have gone out of business long ago other wise..

[Stringswinger]

if we take a "big capitalist corporation bad, small one good" holier than thou world view

That is certainly not my world view. I see the big capitalist corporations as being proof that if you bring a great product or service to a free market, becoming "big" is the reward. And we all gain when incentive is there to motivate people to do great things. Sometimes the big companies fail to innovate and stagnate, but in a free market, they will be overtaken by those with the drive to "build a better mousetrap".

Mesa has built some of the best guitar amplifiers ever and Gibson has built some of the best guitars ever. Both companies can benefit from this merger regardless of the musings of armchair quarterbacks on the Internet (most of whom have never done anything entrepreneurial in their lives).

[Stringswinger]

Epiphone was a first rate company, an actual competitor to Gibson when bought. Soon after they became student grade instruments, mostly targeted towards beginner and low budget market. How would that be considered better? Of course one can argue that they may have gone out of business long ago other wise..

That is factually incorrect. At the time that Gibson bought Epiphone, they were close to bankruptcy (and no competition to Gibson in any meaningful way), as the brother who led the company through its period of great success had died and the brother who was leading the company was in over his head. Gibson kept the brand afloat.

[DRS]

I've wanted a Mesa Boogie amp since I saw this ad way back when (1979?)
Wanted that Les Paul, too.

To me, Boogie always stood for an uncompromising level of professional quality. I always knew that any Mesa product was pro quality and not some piece of consumer garbage made to turn a quick profit. Can't say that for many other manufacturers.

I finally bought a MkV25 when they first came out and I was not disappointed although a lot of manufacturers would've assumed that a low watt, lunch box head was for hobbyists and therefore a candidate for cost saving and cutting corners. Not Mesa.

I just hope the "new" Mesa keeps their old philosophies intact.

[Lobomov]

Mesa has built some of the best guitar amplifiers ever and Gibson has built some of the best guitars ever. Both companies can benefit from this merger regardless of the musings of armchair quarterbacks on the Internet (most of whom have never done anything entrepreneurial in their lives).

My post was not aimed at you, but at those armchair quarterbacks that lament this purchase

I have no problem with it .. My hunch is that it goes good with given that Gibson can boost Mesa's development capital and their marketing capital

But my point was basically, so what if Gibson makes Mesa go belly up? ... The market won't care much, plenty of other builders that can fill that role if need be given a bit of time. I very much doubt that we as consumers are going to suffer much

Knowing you I'm sure we agree on that?

[helios]

Three Mesa EL84 amps I've owned--they keep improving them over the years:

Nomad 45 1X12 (Internet photo)


Express Plus 5:25


Mark V 35 (Current Amp):

[Lobomov]

I got a Rect-o-verb 50 ... Absolutely killer cleans .. and the fact that the footswitch has a "solo" switch that allows you to turn up the volume by stepping on it is amazing. Each channel has two separate volume knobs. One that sets the normal volume and one controls how much the solo setting turns it up. Such a great idea


But it's Twin Reverb heavy ...

[starjasmine]

So much discussion yet I doubt that many on this forum play Mesa amps ?? ... I could be wrong tho?

I am the original owner of an early 80s MKIIC+ Simul that I love for many reasons, although it is a bit bright-sounding for jazz*. Other amps are my first choice for jazz.

And, as you noted regarding your Rect-o-Verb, my IIC is strength-training-in-a-box, especially if it's in the hard case. I think the amp alone is around 80 lbs.

* That can be dialed out, at the expense of a less-bright-and-saturated lead tone. I suspect this shortcoming is what led to subsequent designs that had additional preamp channels for clean, crunch, lead and "modern" lead if I am using the correct marketingspeak.

But the thing is this .. The owner of Mesa has not profited immensely from the sale

Curious, how do you know this? Is this a typo? I don't know details, myself, but it only makes sense that RS had many suitors and was able to choose the best deal, which certainly had to include being well-compensated for a "platinum level" brand with an unmatched reputation.

While Gibson f...... up the Mesa Boogie brand might well be the best possible outcome, if we take a "big capitalist corporation bad, small one good" holier than thou world view

I don't take that view. But there's a ton of empirical proof that Gibson has driven their own brand into the ground over many years running. You can't ignore that this big company has a stunningly successful product and brand but has verged on bankruptcy for something like 7+ years through multiple executive management configurations. Personally, I ran my own business as a consultant to large corporations for over 21 years. I've seen the inside of multiple acquisitions of successful startups by large corporations. Sometimes it is the best possible move for the acquired company: the resources of the large company enable them to do more of what they are good at. At other times, the intellectual property of the small company is swallowed up, maybe buried to avoid competing with the inferior product of the acquiring company, the VC investors walk away with some ROI, and everybody else is basically looking for a job.

I truly hope that Gibson does NOT f--- up Mesa. That would be a shame. But Gibson's recent track record is not so great.

A f... up of the Mesa Boogie brand will leave room for the smaller boutique amp builders to grow their businesses and give us something fresh instead of something stale.

Boogie does not have to go away in order for its competitors to do something fresh. Many of the boutique amps seem to be "me too" respins of the basic Boogie design using cascaded preamp gain stages, which itself began life as a modded Fender amp. Of course, there are exceptions. Quilter does not need Boogie to go under in order for them to succeed. And there are plenty of others. TBH, I haven't shopped for an amp in quite a while (I'm pretty happy with the five amps I already own) so I don't claim to know the current state of the art in amplification. But there seems to be plenty of innovation going on in audio in general, and no reason that those innovations could not show up in guitar amps built by Gibson or by one or more boutique builders.

$0.02,
SJ