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Hi !
I'm having a tech building me a modified clone of Twin Reverb.
Basically AB763 but with some changes ( master volume, effect loop, delete vibrato, normal channel modded as a "lead" channel and 2 6L6s driving 50W of power ) in a head format.
Being totally noob about speakers, i need some advices. I was thinking of a 2*12 configuration to clone the original Twin, but which brands/models should i choose ?
Please share your experiences with speakers swap ( be in a blackface amp or not ! )
I head a lot of good about Weber speakers, but they are hard to get and expensive ( taxes ) to import in Europe. Never tried any speakers except the stock ones in my previous amps.
I play jazz with an Archtop ( Super 400 style ) but also blues/funk with a Telecaster and a Strat
The sound i aim for jazz, think Kenny Burrel
I love clean tones but i don't want too much harsh trebles.
Thanks for your advices and sorry for my English.
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12-25-2020 04:47 PM
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My experience with Twins and Twin-types (Showman, Dual Showman) is that nothing sounds like a JBL (or two). Downside (a) heavy and (b) expensive. I have 12" Celestions in my Traynor YCV-40WR that sound fantastic. Good luck!
PS Your English is fine!
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In my Twin (clone, AB763 circuit) I tried:
- Jensen C12K
Very big sound, lots of bass. I quite liked them but they made the amp super heavy and actually a bit too big and mellow sounding which caused me to turn the bass down with archtops and it made the amp a bit wooly in band situations. I can imagine they would be ideal with a brighter Tele or Strat
- Jensen NEO 12-100
Pleasantly neutral sounding speakers, lightweight(!) They shifted the overal sound signature of the amp a bit up towards the mid-frequencies, which can be a good thing in a band and with an archtop. Liked them!
- late 70ies or early 80ies Pyle “swiss cheese basket” (with Fender Blue label)
These stayed in the amp! They had the best of both worlds: not thát heavy, good bass but not boomy, enough mids and highs to cut through without being sharp and also enough darkness/woody-ness for a nice vintage character.
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Thank to both of you for your returns.
About vintage JBL and Pyle, after some researches, I find that they are really hard to find in France ( and can be extremely pricey for the JBL ). I guess i'll have to stick with the more common Jensen/Eminence/Celestion/WGS...
About the Jensen, i can dig the mellow sounds ( i like a soft sound when playing with a singer ). I heard Eminence Cannabis Rex is good in that case.
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jbl d series alnicos would also be my choice..but as they havent been made in decades..and the parts for recones arent even around...i'd go with 2 celestion alnico golds...probably the best alnico's in current production...pricey but great!...
and dont be thrown by uk vs usa tone speakers...the golds are great regardless of geography! hah
cheers
ps- tho, if i were gettin custom twin style amp made i'd get a single 15" speaker cab...classic jazz tone..and a bit lighter in weight
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Madansi your English is better than a lot of English speaking forum members!
I did a lot to try to remake my Twin into a better jazz amp. Most of what you listed, with the addition of changing the capacitors in the original tone stack to get rid of the scoop. There is a fender tone stack modeler out on the net where you can try combinations and see the tone curve results. TSC
Also tried many speaker optIons. I was trying to optimize getting rid of the Twin ice pick and reduce weight. The way to go in my opinion is the Emenence Delta Pro that is for ‘sound reinforcement’ (ie PA). They weigh very little as they are neodymium magnets. Here’s the description:
Eminence Neodymium Series Deltalite II 2512 12" Pro Audio Speaker, 250 Watts at 8 Ohms
Neodymium Series - Pro Audio | Eminence Speaker
They are a fuller range audio speaker not a limited range guitar amp speaker. They are mild, with a nice flat curve, but have a way extended hi end around 10-12KhZ. I have Delta Pros in a Princeton Reverb, a Theil cabinet, and the Twin. Watch out for the Jensen Neo it is cheaper but an ice pick.
OK one other trick I used was an over spec’d output transformer. I used the transformer from a Fender Showman, I did find it helped a great deal in taming the beast. I went for high end transformers in power and output (Mercury Magnetics). They are freaking heavy, and if did it again I doubt the extra weight is worth it.
good luck and have fun!
d
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Ah Ha! I didn’t see neatomic’s advice re a 15”.... Yes!
Love my Polytone Brute whatever with a 15”. (Of course it’s also a Delta Pro))).
really nice jazz tone.
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Hi jazzkritter, seems like you spent a lot of time modding your twin !
I'm a complete noob on electronics, but here are some mods i asked to the amp tech for my build :
- Great parts ( Mercury Transformer, probably Sozo caps ) and 60's NOS tubes ( this guy has a big stock of it ! )
- And normal channel revoiced for a clean/soft crunch with more midrange
- A " raw mode " push pull pot ==> Desactive the tone stack, so bit more of bass/treble, and way more mids !
Also will be PTP so easy to mod in the future if i want to.
About 15" speaker, i must think about it... Never played one but i just saw videos on youtube, they give a very nice, beautiful round and " complete " sound. I'm just afraid of loosing some compression that is usefull when you play in a band context ( i like to be in good terms with my bassist and pianist friends ! )
About the speaker you reccomended me ( Deltalite ? Can't find a one named Deltapro in your link ) i see it's also suited for bass guitar... Which is a plus for me !
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BTW if any of you guys have a experience to share about 1 vs 2 speakers cab... I never AB'ed but in my mind 2 speakers sound "fuller". But if i'm wrong, having to buy only 1 speaker will help me to reduce weight and also having more money to buy a really qualitative speaker !
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Yes I got my first amateur radio license in 1965, so all my early learning was in vacuum tube theory. Love them glowing little bottles. But not in radios, that’s another story.
You got me Mandansi! They were only called Delta Pro when I got them about 8 years ago). So true it’s now Deltalite.
Eminence Deltalite 2512 Speaker (250 Watts) | zZounds
Looks like you’ve got a great set of mods going, should be fine, and would love to know how it works out.
”JazzKritter” is actually an amp I designed, built and sold one of before the 2008 crash. It’s a very modified Vibroverb, with five switchable tone modifiers (patent pending), all Mercury iron, good caps, etc. PTP. Two 10” Delta Pro/Lite (?))) Bass guitar speakers with aluminum cones.
IMHO the best jazz guitar amp ever. But with no established name, no names, it was impossible to market. So I guess it’s not the best jazz guitar amp ever.
But I mention it cause of your bass speaker comment. I did find that bass speakers are a good way to get a far ‘creamier’ tone. Trade secret now out in the open.
I don’t know about 1 or 2 speakers per cab, I’ve never done any tests. I could definitely see a 15” getting flabby for anything aggressive. I suspect others can help you here.
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Seems like you know about amps !
Only thing i'm afraid of about bass or FRFR speakers is loosing that compression and "true vintage" sound. The sound i love the most is vintage, when people didn't have this gear ( even tho i believe that most of the sound is in player's hand )
About your tone modifiers, my tech proposed me little switchs to change the sound. He told me it's based on " changing the polarisation values of preamp tubes ". Hard for me to translate technical words from French to English.
While we're on the talk about mods ( i believe public conversations are great since it can always serve one another ) he also offered me to use a Fender classic reverb tank but with a " Tone King ispired " way of using this tank. For my ears Fender reverb is not progressive enough, being absolutely too loud after the pot is on 4-5. So guess i'm gonna give that mod a try !
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Neatomic gave good advice regarding the Celestion Alnico Gold's. Great speaker and if you don't bond with it, you won't be hurt on the resale.
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Interesting, not sure what he means by polarization and yep could be translation. The tone stack, volume and brite switch sit between the two half’s of the first preamp tube. So the signal goes from the Jack to the first half of the preamp tube, back out and through the tone stack/volume and then into the other half of the tube. Thus changing anything in between the two half’s can make major (or slight) tone changes. It’s the correct place to do it.
My designs are modifications of vintage as Personally I find the vintage fender just lacks the headroom for a good jazz sound. My goal was to take note of any part in the chain I could vary and bias towards a jazz tone, and away from general purpose. Heresy to Twin lovers I know. But time marches on.
However Wes, Barney, Tal, all those cats used stock Twins with no problem so maybe I’m crazy lol.
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I have a Fender Supersonic 60 2x12 cab that I’m using with a 1962 Bassman head that I simply loaded with two speakers I had on hand, an Eminence Cannabis Rex and an Eminence Legend 1258. Just by chance, the combo with that head sounds amazingly good, both with the normal channel clean or the bass channel overdriven. I was very pleasantly surprised, although YMMV.
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There's still a lot of aversion towards Neo speakers, stemming from their disappointing 1st generation well over a decade ago. Now they are mature and competitive products, from all aspects. Fender uses both Jensen's N12K and Celestion Neo Creambacks in their praised Tone Master versions of Twins. According SICA/Jensen's experts, neodymium magnets' physical behavior is very similar to AlNiCos'. They are less expensive by now and, of course, substantially lighter. Beside the above mentioned speakers (N12K for classic Fender tone, Celestion for high-gain rock), I would look at Jensen's N12 100TR, i.e. the "classic" Tornado, which is extremely versatile. As an alternative, Eminence's Lil'Texas has not received the attention it deserves. Deltalite II is definitely a robust bass speaker with a flatter response curve and heavier cone. Celestion's BN12-300S is more "guitary" and weighs and costs less. To me, 15" guitar speakers are relics from the past, when there was no mic'ing into PA available for higher volumes in larger venues. The paradox is: the larger the speaker, the narrower the projection. Hence, a 15" does a better job torturing the audience straight ahead than "filling the room". It's not without reason that manufacturers haven't offered 15" guitar amps for the mainstream for ages.
Disclaimer: Apart from the N12K, I have first-hand experience of all the mentioned speakers, settling for Tornados for my 10" and 12" TOOB guitar cabs and Celestions for the respective bass versions. Well over 200 delivered, the only one so far rejected by a customer now serves as a demonstrator at the SICA/Jensen factory, in the company of Fenders, Mesas etc.
An afterthought: Jensen has just introduced the Blackbird 40, a 12", 40W AlNiCo speaker weighing a mere 2 kg. I should be getting a couple for testing in early January and will definitely share my impressions with the Forum.Last edited by Gitterbug; 12-26-2020 at 10:09 AM.
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If you are looking for vintage tone, check out Jupiter speakers. They are OEM’d for Jupiter by WGS, but are different than the WGS-brand speakers. I have JBLs in two amps (a D120F in a DR, and a K130 in a tweed Pro) and although those are fine speakers, they haven’t been produced for many years and you can no longer get correct recone kits for them. The Jupiters I’ve used get that nice Fender sparkle on the top without being harsh, and have good tight bass. They are also available in Germany at a reasonable price.
But you’ll get as many opinions as there are speakers. If I want a Fender amp, then I want an appropriate speaker in it, which would NOT be, say, any Celestion. The Jupiters do that better for me than any other current production.
Oh, the Jensen Jet Blackbird is also a very fine speaker.
Steven
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the tone king circuit puts the reverb ahead of the pre-amp...as if it were an outboard fender tank...this is going to make the reverb even more pronounced...
Originally Posted by Madansi
maybe not the mod for you
if you are not a fan of spring reverb, you may be better off getting an effects loop built into the amp so that you can use the reverb unit of your choice...plate, hall, room verb etc...
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 12-26-2020 at 02:55 PM. Reason: typo-
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Anyone have an experience to share about WGS speakers ?
I'm interested into G12C and G12C/s models.
G12C is said to be like the original Jensen but with a touch less of high treble ( less icepick ? )
G12/s is said to be smoother, warmer. Could be nice for my archtop ( Super 400 copy, already nice highs ) and my solidbody ( mostly single coils, don't like excessive highs ). Also this model is said to be really dynamic, which is great for me.
WGS speakers are easy to buy at a decent price ( 100€/speaker ) here in France so i'm very interested into them.
This speaker are rated 75W which looks perfect for my build ( 50W twin copy ). Also the /s ( smooth cone ) version has a nice JBL's orange look
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I have a small open back 2x12" Carvin Cab. I found my favorite combination is Warehouse Guitar Speakers ET90 and a Blackhawk HP 100 watt Alnico.
But I like Fat, Cleans much like old JBL Speakers. And these speakers are much lighter in weight!
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yes, no set rule that both speakers have to be the same...having 2 different speakers can be interesting...you get a composite tone between the two, but when recording can highlight one over the other
as long as the sensitivity spec of the speakers is fairly close
cheers
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I thought Showman Reverb output transformers were identical to Twin Reverb, except perhaps the output impedance, so I don’t understand that mod.
I like having two different speakers in my SF Twin Reverb. One is Eminence RW&B and the other a budget Celestion model, now discontinued. If you don’t insist on matching speakers you can buy three or four single speakers with different qualities and pair them in various ways until you find your favorite pairing. You just want to make sure both speakers are 8 ohms and similar sensitivity spec. They don’t need to have similar frequency responses, since the whole idea is to blend two different ones.
If I needed to shave a few pounds off my Twin, I’d probably try replacing each of my speakers with a Jensen Tornado (neo) to see which combination I preferred.
Since you are messing with the reverb, I’d recommend having a Dwell knob added. It adds a lot of versatility. And Fender reverbs tend to be bright. If you think so to, your tech could roll off the treble in the reverb preamp a bit, or could add a switch or control to change the value.
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This year. I tried out a bunch of 12"s in a Headstrong Lil King (Basically a Blackface Fender Princeton). Some of these are too low wattage for you to consider anyway, but here are some of the ones I tried out. Look for some of them in the "For Sale" section soon.
Eminence GA SC64
Celestion Gold
Weber 12a150a
Weber 12a125
Weber 12a125a
Eminence Cannabis Rex
Eminence Legend 1258
Jupiter 12LC
Jupiter 12LA
Jupiter 12SC
WGS 12C
Jensen P12Q 1959
Jensen P12R 1955
I don't know why I got so curious with speakers, but I think it had partly to do with COVID and people not wanting to get together to play. Some thoughts below:
My favorite one was the 1955 Jensen P12R and the P12Q for this amp. Over the years, the speaker cone softens and becomes very responsive, and there are no new speakers that have such a great quality out of the box. It's a lot like an old archtop vs a new one. It's hard to describe in words the difference an old speaker makes; there's a tactile element to it: you can really feel it when you're playing.
Among the modern speakers, I would say the best was the Jupiter 12LA and then Celestion Gold 12. They sound very different but both are great. The Celestion Gold has pronounced lower mids and extended treble range, which can sound good or bad depending on the amp. The Celestion has a distinct character which is not really what one typically thinks of as Fender. The Jupiter 12LA is the best sounding modern American Alnico 12" I've played. If you want the Fender sound with an alnico character (richer harmonics, more speaker compression) then you probably won't find a better speaker.
The Weber speakers are pretty good, but I prefer the sound of the Jupiter speakers, they are more transparent than any Webers I've played.
Among the Eminence Speakers, my favorite was the Legend 1258. It has less bass and more upper mids than the others, but it's the most "authentic" sounding of them in my experience. The GA SC64 and Cannabis Rex were both too dark. The CRex was dark in a good way - it sounded "old school", the SC64 dark and very modern sounding. I have heard the SC 64 is great for distortion.
WGS vs Jupiter. I tried the WGS 12C and the Jupiter 12LC. Nearly identical speakers. The Jupiter just sounds more broken in, if that makes sense. Quicker response, more harmonics, more clarity. I like the Jupiter 12SC more than the 12LC. Larger magnet is not always better. By far the Alnico Jupiter 12LA was cooler than the other Jupiters.
Weber Speakers. I have tried a lot of Weber Speakers. I didn't like any of their 12s, to be honest.
If you want to maximize for authenticity, I'd say go for the Jupiter 12SC or LC. They will produce the sound you have in your head when you think of Blackface Fenders. I tend to like Alnico speakers more, and I got really lucky finding some good deals on those old Jensens.
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I once had BlackFace Pro reverb with two different 12" speakers, I don't remember the details, but there was a good deal of complexity with the tone. The amp also a master volume installed. Great amp! Unfortunately I let it go, along with a bunch of other amps and so forth to a guy who had made me a considerable profit from my vintage Electro Harmonix collection. In this case, he took my consignment and skipped town. Market vagaries.... Originally Posted by neatomic
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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
speakers need a period of fairly hard break in to really come alive... i hear the well broken in celestion golds as having a deep solid bass, not a typical lower mid bump...the top is indeed chimey, but clean...not brittle...the mids are pretty even all across
also depends what you consider a "fender sound"...i always liked the jbl d series alnico's...which had some similar tonal traits to the celestion gold...deep bottom and sharp but clear high end...also highly efficient..
lastly as per uk vs usa tones... ive always felt the amp design/tubes had more to do with this than the speakers...uk used el84's and el 34's a lot...usa used 6v6 and 6l6..all different tonally
cheers
ps- i think the original alnico blues..which were only rated at 15 watts sort of contributed to the idea of the uk sound...since when driven hard (like in a 4 el-84 tube ac-30)...had a biting sound...but the design of the celestion gold is different...takes 40-50 watts...different cone...handles power well...not to be confused
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I'm going to have to agree to disagree with glitterbug on the 15 inch speaker size angle. Having my twin with 2 12s then 1 15 I do get a fuller widely dispersed sound out of the 15. I've also noticed 15s or 10s are less feedback prone with hollow guitars, the 12s seem to resonate earlier.
That said I do like the Eminence Deltalite in the 15 inch version, the series is suggested as a stand alone monitor speaker for either closed or open back and has a flat response. I use a linear Twin so your results may differ. The best sounding 15 I have is a old JBL AS version of the D series but it weighs a ton and is hard to find and pricey.
I also have 15 inch versions of the Yamaha G100 and Randall RG120 that sound and project great as well.
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