Secondary Dominants

[charlieparker]

I wanted to spin off a thread on Secondary Dominants that came up in the thinking theory thread to talk about it some more.

Most of the theory I know I picked from Andy Jaffe's Jazz Harmony

Secondary Dominants are very common in music from Bach to Jazz. One replaces a diatonic chord with a dominant seventh to create a stronger sense of movement to the next diatonic chord.

For example in a turnaround, I-VI7-ii-V7 the VI7 chord is a secondary dominant.

The way I think about pitch collections over secondary dominants is that you keep all the pitches that are diatonic to the key except for those that were changed to make the dominant chord

So, if I am playing in C major over an A7 that is followed by the ii, I would still play C major but replace C with a C#.

The way I use this concept is to mostly experiment with lines with an emphasis on the non-diatonic note. By playing these notes in lines, it makes the harmony pop a bit more (as opposed to playing completely diatonic).

Of course one could just say, emphasize chord tones and get to a similar place but the secondary dominant can lead you to focus on the one or two notes that are non-diatonic.

Other examples:
In the blues, we can think of the I7 as secondary dominant in bar 4 (and maybe that is part of the reason that it sounds good to not really emphasize the b7 in measures 1-3).

The bridge in RC is an extended chain of secondary dominants.

Anyways, TLDR, understanding secondary dominants are simple way to think about some dominant chords in Jazz that one can use to experiment with building lines.

[Reg]

Yea... that's just the basic starting point. Which can reflect a basic Reference, (the VI7 being a secondary dominant of a Diatonic target. ) and relationship with the simple somewhat vanilla development of that Relationship.

[charlieparker]

Yea... that's just the basic starting point. Which can reflect a basic Reference, (the VI7 being a secondary dominant of a Diatonic target. ) and relationship with the simple somewhat vanilla development of that Relationship.

That's kind of the point, though. I got the impression that people think that secondary dominants are super advanced or useless. For me they are a simple concept.

[Mick-7]

That's kind of the point, though. I got the impression that people think that secondary dominants are super advanced or useless. For me they are a simple concept.

Well, the trouble (challenge) starts when you alter the 7th chords or use substitutes for them.

[ragman1]

For example in a turnaround, I-VI7-ii-V7 the VI7 chord is a secondary dominant.

The way I think about pitch collections over secondary dominants is that you keep all the pitches that are diatonic to the key except for those that were changed to make the dominant chord

So, if I am playing in C major over an A7 that is followed by the ii, I would still play C major but replace C with a C#.

If you want to improve that even more, remember A7 is the V of Dm so it's a minor ii-V. Drop any B naturals you might be tempted to use to Bb (as well as using the C#). That'll give you the right minor sound. Then go back to the major afterwards.

[Christian Miller]

That's kind of the point, though. I got the impression that people think that secondary dominants are super advanced or useless. For me they are a simple concept.

Really?

I think they are pretty essential for understanding standards chords progressions. That said, I learned about them reading a classical theory text book. And leading tone diminished chords.

And I am often surprised at what they do and don’t teach on jazz courses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

Really?

I think they are pretty essential for understanding standards chords progressions. That said, I learned about them reading a classical theory text book. And leading tone diminished chords.

And I am often surprised at what they do and don’t teach on jazz courses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Theyre usually the first thing after diatonic chords, from the jazz theory books I have. So kind of the same place you’d find them in classical theory.

Hard to find a tune that doesn’t have a few.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Secondary dominants are a very simple concept if you know your cycle of fifths (resp. fourths) inside and out -- which should be one of the first things to learn anyway. The tritone subs are found on the opposite side of the cycle (and can be found very easily on the fretboard -- assuming standard tuning -- anyway).

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

If you want to improve that even more, remember A7 is the V of Dm so it's a minor ii-V. Drop any B naturals you might be tempted to use to Bb (as well as using the C#). That'll give you the right minor sound. Then go back to the major afterwards.

Depending on the tune and the style there might be as well natural 9ths as well as minor 9ths on the VI7.

Out Of Nowhere has a natural 9th in meas. 7, All Of Me has a minor 9th in meas. 6 and 22 and a natural 9th in meas. 28.

[pamosmusic]

Depending on the tune and the style there might be as well natural 9ths as well as minor 9ths on the VI7.

Out Of Nowhere has a natural 9th in meas. 7, All Of Me has a minor 9th in meas. 6 and 22 and a natural 9th in meas. 28.

My Ideal m2, Billie’s Bounce m7

b9 is more common but natural 9 is far from rare

9#5 is a pretty chord

I would be interested to know how many of those secondary dominant b9 chords are bebop-ifications of swing era passing diminished chords

[Christian Miller]

To my ears Billies bounce bars 7-9 are F6 | A-7 Ab-7 | G-7 not a minor ii v I, so doesn’t really count. Have a listen and see if you agree.

But it does fit the usual changes too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

To my ears Billies bounce bars 7-9 are F6 | A-7 Ab-7 | G-7 not a minor ii v I, so doesn’t really count. Have a listen and see if you agree.

But it does fit the usual changes too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds like you’re right.

I’m hearing F Bb B F - …. Bb - A - Ab - G … it actually sounds like maybe the bass is using F# Gb over that chord in the second pass through? Maybe D on the first in the chorus. Piano definitely descending chromatically through Ab- though.

Chet Baker is a ii-V a couple times. Dexter a ii-V a couple times. Also it seems like none of them play the Bdim in bar 6. Piano might do it a couple times but the bass doesn’t seem to much. I like that because I never do. Mostly from laziness but now I can say it’s stylistically correct.

Anyway … Still counts though … ii-7 instead of ii half diminished. Boo.

[garybaldy]

It jars with me when, in All of Me, people play C % E9 %.

[Reg]

Secondary doms , extended Doms, expanded concepts of both.

As Christian mentioned... Dims. Although personally I don't like most of the harmonic organizations which use Dim. based organization because they tend to change Blue note organization. (Obviously they Work... just a personal choice thing)

The difficulty with most when using mechanical harmonic tools to expand the concept ...Tonic or tonal or whatever you want to label "expanding diatonic" ... is just that... they become mechanical.

The simple approach when expanding... is to use Harmonic Rhythm. Which just becomes the rhythmic pulse or rhythmic pattern of the harmony. Also expand that concept with Subdom harmony.

[Reg]

It jars with me when, in All of Me, people play C % E9 %.

I had to play that tune the last couple nights, last night I did a ... blusy rhythmic intro..

// C6/9 A7b13#9 / D9 G7b13 /
/ E-7b5 A7b13 / Ab13 G7b13//
// C6/9 A7b13 #9/ D-9 G7alt /
C6/9... drum fill....

Played melody with horn, so pretty straight just heavy swing...

x x 8 7 5 8
x x 3 4 4 3
x 3 x 3 5 x

x x 8 9 10 8
x x 8 9 10 10
x 8 7 8 8 8

x 7 7 7 7 7
x 7 x 7 9 x
x 5 6 6 5 x
fill
x x 5 6 7 5
x 7 6 7 8 x
x 4 5 4 5 x

x 3 4 3 4 x
x 4 5 4 5 x
x x 5 6 6 6
x x 5 6 6 5

x x 3 5 5 3
5 x 5 6 6 x
x 5 3 5 6 x

etc.


generally if you keep the important tonal targets pretty straight, you can actually have fun and open doors for where the tune can go.... disclaimer, I've had to play the tune with way to many vocalist for decades...

[Christian Miller]

Sounds like you’re right.

I’m hearing F Bb B F - …. Bb - A - Ab - G … it actually sounds like maybe the bass is using F# Gb over that chord in the second pass through? Maybe D on the first in the chorus. Piano definitely descending chromatically through Ab- though.

Quite possibly, I find the bass hard to discern tbh.

My listening suggests that chromatic move was a popular choice for blues changes during this era. My guess is that Parker simply called ‘a blues in F’ on the session and everyone played their own take on the changes.

Otoh bird does use the D7 sound for some of his soloing. So maybe he was thinking of that for the head too! No way of knowing tbh. It fits either version.

Chet Baker is a ii-V a couple times. Dexter a ii-V a couple times. Also it seems like none of them play the Bdim in bar 6. Piano might do it a couple times but the bass doesn’t seem to much. I like that because I never do. Mostly from laziness but now I can say it’s stylistically correct.

Anyway … Still counts though … ii-7 instead of ii half diminished. Boo.

I’m specifically talking about the Bird version. Slight differences creep in with other versions in the head melody too.

I have sent myself a bit mad listening to BB tbh. Like - is that an E# in bar 8? I think so.

There’s also the famous Eb in bar 2.

Yeah there’s no Bo7 in BB. It stays on Bb7


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

It jars with me when, in All of Me, people play C % E9 %.

Wot like bird in bar 20?

I reckon we think it would jar because we are sensitised to it in our own playing, but in fact we don’t notice it when it’s done well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ragman1]

Depending on the tune and the style there might be as well natural 9ths as well as minor 9ths on the VI7.

Yes, there are exceptions, like everything else in life, therefore use common sense.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Yes, there are exceptions, like everything else in life, therefore use common sense.

How about using those two things left and right of your brain and learning to hear the two different tastes?

[Christian Miller]

Ugh, actually listen to jazz? Why would anyone voluntarily do that?

We’re just here to inflict ourselves on all and sundry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Ugh, actually listen to jazz? Why would anyone voluntarily do that?

We’re just here to inflict ourselves on all and sundry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it common sense that listening is overestimated regarding music? Asks a theory cat ...

[Christian Miller]

Is it common sense that listening is overestimated regarding music? Asks a theory cat ...

Apparently so! Only nerds listen to music.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Apparently so! Only nerds listen to music.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Theoretical construction is hip. Ears are for squares. Van Gogh was right.

[princeplanet]

... Ears are for squares...

you have that backwards...

wsj.com