Fender Twin+ L-5 + small room= ????

[DMgolf66]

Was reading a recent thread (I cant remember the subject) and one of the prominent members stated that in the end a Fender Twin + L-5/Super 400 will always be a very big/ beautiful jazz tone or words to that effect. He described it in a way I cant remember, but he stated that even in a small room this worked well. My question is, dont amps like that need more volume to get them fired up and sounding their best? From what I read I always thought having a Twin as a "Bedroom" amp was a waste and that they didnt soubd great at bedroom levels.

Just curious, bored and awaiting a storm.....

[SoftwareGuy]

I think the point is that traditional fender amps sound 'clean' at low volumes, which is what I think a L5 player would want. The two 12 speakers with an open back sounds huge is a modest size room.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I have a Clark high power tweed twin clone set up as a head with an open back 212 cabinet loaded with Weber California Ceramic speakers. I think it sounds great at low volumes.

It’s set quite low here. Bass and treble are all the way down and presence is at 2.

[citizenk74]

Was reading a recent thread (I cant remember the subject) and one of the prominent members stated that in the end a Fender Twin + L-5/Super 400 will always be the quinessential jazz tone or words to that effect. He described it in a way I cant remember, but he stated that even in a small room this worked well. My question is, dont amps like that need more volume to get them fired up and sounding their best? From what I read I always thought having a Twin as a "Bedroom" amp was a waste and that they didnt soubd great at bedroom levels.

Just curious, bored and awaiting a storm.....

This is how I see it. The idea that amps need a certain volume to open up holds true mainly with solid-bodied guitars, where a certain amount of drive initiates the transformer sag and soft-knee compression characteristic of tube/transformer amps. With an archtop, the guitar itself creates that sag/compression when the top flexes to create the sound, giving the note a certain blooming quality.

Also, more speaker area nearly always just sounds better at any volume. When I had my red-knob "evil" Twin, my practice level was basically "on." And never underestimate the power of a "mid" knob. Fletcher-Munson tells us all we need to know about perceived tone.

Of course. it never hurts to have a dedicated practice amp, and if the "big amps don't sound good at low levels" line helps convince one's better half that a Princeton or Champ might be needed, I say go for it.

[skykomishone]

Nothing compares to the sound of the Twin Reverb. That was my first amp, around 1968, and I had a Guild x-500 or 700, can't remember, but I played it in small rooms plenty of times. It always amazed me. But some of those 'small' rooms also had a Hammond B3 with a couple of 100 watt Leslie's, and a full drum kit!

I'm not sure my wife would appreciate it nowadays, and I've downsized to a few smaller amps, like a Vibroverb, Henriksen, and Sequel Skoter, but I sure miss the old Twin. I don't miss lugging it around to gigs, so it would definitely have to stay home in a small room!

[TedBPhx]

May I witness to you the Good News of ToneMaster?

[John A.]

Was reading a recent thread (I cant remember the subject) and one of the prominent members stated that in the end a Fender Twin + L-5/Super 400 will always be the quinessential jazz tone or words to that effect. He described it in a way I cant remember, but he stated that even in a small room this worked well. My question is, dont amps like that need more volume to get them fired up and sounding their best? From what I read I always thought having a Twin as a "Bedroom" amp was a waste and that they didnt soubd great at bedroom levels.

Just curious, bored and awaiting a storm.....

It's always interesting to hear people say that this or that piece of equipment is the quintessential jazz tone when it didn't even exist when the quintessential Farlow/Raney/Pass/Burrell/Wes/Smith/Hall recordings were made, and/or was not used in the studios where those recordings were made. E.g., an awful lot of those recordings were made either with Rudy Van Gelder's tweed Deluxe, or the Ampegs that were fixtures in NY studios, or with Polytones. And no recordings before 1963 had a TR. But, yes, on stage a big box Gibson through a Twin is quite a soud. There, controversy sparked. You're welcome

To your actual question, I've played through many TR's (including a friend's literal bedroom vintage BF TR, plus the full spectrum of variants), and I've always found them frustrating. For me, the sweet spot is when there's a little bit of compression and "hair", and the un-scooping that starts to kick in at higher volume settings on Fender amps. For my uses, Twins are too loud at the point where they sound good (4-5 on the volume knob), and I don't like their sound at more sane volumes (with occasional exceptions). I've honestly never coveted a Twin and am much happier with lower powered, smaller amps. Obviously, Kenny Burrell disagrees, and his opinion is worth a lot more than mine, but I'll stick with mine anyway.

John

[jads57]

Sure when tubes or valves are pushed they usually have a more pleasing tone and exhibit a bit of sag or compression. But at low volumes they really don't add much character to the actual tone.
And while we could get under the microscope and get into minute details. I don't think the actual Jazz guitarists cared that much so long as it stayed Clean.

If your looking for the ideal Clean Blackface type tone check out Quilter Aviator amps on the used market. Especially the 1x8" combo !

[Dutchbopper]

It's always interesting to hear people say that this or that piece of equipment is the quintessential jazz tone when it didn't even exist when the quintessential Farlow/Raney/Pass/Burrell/Wes/Smith/Hall recordings were made, and/or was not used in the studios where those recordings were made. E.g., an awful lot of those recordings were made either with Rudy Van Gelder's tweed Deluxe, or the Ampegs that were fixtures in NY studios, or with Polytones. And no recordings before 1963 had a TR. But, yes, on stage a big box Gibson through a Twin is quite a soud. There, controversy sparked. You're welcome John

Right on. I would not know of one single 50s or early 60s classic jazz recording that was recorded with an L5 through a Twin. Most of the classic albums by Barney, Herb, Joe, Tal, Jim, Kenny, Johnny, Rene, Billy etc. do not even feature an L5, let alone that combination.

So in this case "quintessential" is an opinion rather than a fact.

DB

[DMgolf66]

Right on. I would not know of one single 50s or early 60s classic jazz recording that was recorded with an L5 through a Twin. Most of the classic albums by Barney, Herb, Joe, Tal, Jim, Kenny, Johnny, Rene, Billy etc. do not even feature an L5, let alone that combination.

So in this case "quintessential" is an opinion rather than a fact.

DB

Ok, ok....no need to start a holy war. I knew better than to use the word "quinessential", so let's nip this in the bud and I will edit the original post. I did find the post by the member and he didnt use the word quinessential, so my bad.

That aside my basic question was regarding the use of a large (Twin) amp with an L-5/Super 400 in a small room.

[wolflen]

That aside my basic question was regarding the use of a large (Twin) amp with an L-5/Super 400 in a small room.

Had several TR amps..in stock form they were just fantastic..for rock .. when modified they will make your ears ring..

when using them in my living room at night with another guitarist just jamming..they worked nice (I had a Guild 175 type box) and got some very nice
warm tones..

but

an analogy...its like a turbo charged Mustang GT manual with race exhaust ..going 10mph and 1500 RPM in third..

will it work..sure..is it overkill..you bet..a smaller amp would do in the "small" room ..but if you need to knock the walls down..you have that option.

[wintermoon]

A '69 L5 through a '67 bf Twin has been my main rig for over 25 yrs now on countless gigs. I even use it at home, though usually go back and forth w/a Super 400.

[DMgolf66]

A '69 L5 through a '67 bf Twin has been my main rig for over 25 yrs now on countless gigs. I even use it at home, though usually go back and forth w/a Super 400.

I'd love to hear that!
Any "por ejemplos" (examples)?

[deacon Mark]

I pretty sure it as myself who made the post on the TR and Super 400 sound. The reason i prefaced low volume or at least not really loud had to do with feedback. I have played my D'a through a TR numerous times and the real issue eventually becomes feedback. I am not about to tape f holes but just listening at no feedback levels the sound is really nice. My D'a is normally run through my RE twin 8 and Claris R2. That sound certainly is good but different that the TR. To my ears there just seems to be something a bit different that is appealing, yet I fully realize it is a one trick pony. Jazz and maybe some blues if it does not get loud.... then no feedback. Burrell at times almost went to the point the sound broke up in the amp is it gives another dimension...very nice when used with taste.

As to the classic jazz sound that to me largely is in the hands of the players themselves. That really defines the greats in that they had there own sound. You can spot Barney K in about 2 measures of playing. Joe P the same way it we know when he is playing no need to name the guitarist. Burrell exactly the same. The greats all seem to have a signature sound that makes them what they are as artist. I don't think of it as equipment so much at all. But guitars and amps can shape a person sound even if they are not one of those greats. Heck I am hack at best and so to me guitars and amps are part of the picture. A real artist just goes in and paints. Certainly they need things in order but not to the degree a hack like me does.

To take an example Johnny Smith had a particular sound he captured and did this on his favorite set up. This was a floating pickup acoustic archtop, and he used a D'a or his own JSG. Now I am going to guarantee if you handed Johnny Smith, Joe Pass's es175, and told him to play Moonlight in Vermont, he would sound like Johnny Smith. The wild thing is we possible would not even know if someone did not tell what was used on the recording. Not sure about that but certainly possibility. The classic sound of jazz in an era is as much lore and mystic, as it is in what really happened. I cannot go back to the early 60's and sit down in a club or studio with Joe Pass playing his 175 with Clare Fischer. My mother in the early 60's sat in a club called PJ's in Hollywood I believe. She listen to Barney Kessel with my dad, cannot bring it back but it draws a certain sense in time that is part of the experience of music and people. That is nice to have and try to capture at times in various ways. Given the crazy c-19 world at the moment it probably seems like close to paradise.

[medblues]

Pull out two of the power tubes, max the volume, turn down the tone knobs all the way down and then very gradually turn them up, you should get nice saturated compressed tube tone at small room volume. I never had a TR but it worked with other loud amps with a BF TR tone stack.

[John A.]

Ok, ok....no need to start a holy war. I knew better than to use the word "quinessential", so let's nip this in the bud and I will edit the original post. I did find the post by the member and he didnt use the word quinessential, so my bad.

That aside my basic question was regarding the use of a large (Twin) amp with an L-5/Super 400 in a small room.

Well, you did say you were bored and waiting for a storm.

John

[DMgolf66]

I pretty sure it as myself who made the post on the TR and Super 400 sound. The reason i prefaced low volume or at least not really loud had to do with feedback. I have played my D'a through a TR numerous times and the real issue eventually becomes feedback. I am not about to tape f holes but just listening at no feedback levels the sound is really nice. My D'a is normally run through my RE twin 8 and Claris R2. That sound certainly is good but different that the TR. To my ears there just seems to be something a bit different that is appealing, yet I fully realize it is a one trick pony. Jazz and maybe some blues if it does not get loud.... then no feedback. Burrell at times almost went to the point the sound broke up in the amp is it gives another dimension...very nice when used with taste.

As to the classic jazz sound that to me largely is in the hands of the players themselves. That really defines the greats in that they had there own sound. You can spot Barney K in about 2 measures of playing. Joe P the same way it we know when he is playing no need to name the guitarist. Burrell exactly the same. The greats all seem to have a signature sound that makes them what they are as artist. I don't think of it as equipment so much at all. But guitars and amps can shape a person sound even if they are not one of those greats. Heck I am hack at best and so to me guitars and amps are part of the picture. A real artist just goes in and paints. Certainly they need things in order but not to the degree a hack like me does.

To take an example Johnny Smith had a particular sound he captured and did this on his favorite set up. This was a floating pickup acoustic archtop, and he used a D'a or his own JSG. Now I am going to guarantee if you handed Johnny Smith, Joe Pass's es175, and told him to play Moonlight in Vermont, he would sound like Johnny Smith. The wild thing is we possible would not even know if someone did not tell what was used on the recording. Not sure about that but certainly possibility. The classic sound of jazz in an era is as much lore and mystic, as it is in what really happened. I cannot go back to the early 60's and sit down in a club or studio with Joe Pass playing his 175 with Clare Fischer. My mother in the early 60's sat in a club called PJ's in Hollywood I believe. She listen to Barney Kessel with my dad, cannot bring it back but it draws a certain sense in time that is part of the experience of music and people. That is nice to have and try to capture at times in various ways. Given the crazy c-19 world at the moment it probably seems like close to paradise.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Lovely and well said. I appreciate you coming to the rescue and clarifying my ill-presented remembrance of your post.
Did I mention "Thank you"?

[DMgolf66]

Well, you did say you were bored and waiting for a storm.

John

Haha!
Touche!

[Gitfiddler]

I enjoy amp threads since I always learn something from the wealth of knowledge on this board. Having played through Twin Reverbs over the years, my main takeaway was their beautiful clean tones at all levels. My ears are still ringing from the time I cranked one back in the 70's. These days however, my clean power amp is a Heritage Patriot, a 45 watt, tube rectified beauty that is perfect for wonderful jazz tones at reasonable levels.

I have a couple of questions about comments some posters have made about sag and compression from a Twin Reverb.

How is sag possible from a Twin Reverb that does not use a rectifier tube?

And does compression occur at only higher volume levels?

[John A.]

I enjoy amp threads since I always learn something from the wealth of knowledge on this board. Having played through Twin Reverbs over the years, my main takeaway was their beautiful clean tones at all levels. My ears are still ringing from the time I cranked one back in the 70's. These days however, my clean power amp is a Heritage Patriot, a 45 watt, tube rectified beauty that is perfect for wonderful jazz tones at reasonable levels.

I have a couple of questions about comments some posters have made about sag and compression from a Twin Reverb.

How is sag possible from a Twin Reverb that does not use a rectifier tube?

And does compression occur at only higher volume levels?

I don't think they do "sag", but if you turn one up you get quite a sustaining tone. Like this:

(Mike Bloomfield + Sunburst Les Paul + dimed Twin)
Edit: Oops, wrong link, fixed.
John

[gitman]

There are so many variables that come into play here , way more than just the parameters
- L5 / Super-400 (CES)
- Twin Reverb amp
- small room (what is small ? A bedroom, a club stage, coffee house stage, a rehearsal room ...?)

Is it a loud/large band you're playing with, with/without drums, Hammond Organ, horns, drums + percussion...?
Is the amp placed against a wall, are there curtains, dividers, sofas, tables, etc. that break up sound waves ?
Are you sitting/standing close to the amp ? Does it sit on the floor (hollow stage/solid brick) ? Do you mic up the amp or have to turn up to hear yourself ?

I have gigged MANY times , for years, with several Super-400 CES models and my experience with open back, large amps has been a mixed one : more often than not I had difficulties controlling the bass (even turning it to "0" didn't help at times when I needed more stage volume) . I absolutely prefer amps that are powerful but move a bit LESS air, i.e. with a 12" or even 10" speaker in a closed/half closed cab.
A friend (seasoned pro player also) swears by his blackface Fender Pro Reverb with 40 watts into 2 blue Alnico speakers.
His particular amp gets a sweet sound at moderate volumes (in good sounding, un-problematic rooms) but it's a one-trick pony, that's for sure. I greatly prefer my EVANS RE200 (10" , 200 watts solid state) , my BUD or my GLB Sound 50 watt tube 1x12"
combo (for home and studio use). These give me consistent good tone, at low to med-high volume situations. YMMV

[rpjazzguitar]

One of the best guitar sounds I ever heard was a Fender D'Aquisto (not sure which model, there were two, apparently), through a TR.

On the other hand, I had a TR with JBL's and I found the attack of the notes to be too fast or harsh or something. I don't know anything about "sag", but I think I'd have wanted more if I knew how to get it.

I used to have to use a TR in a rehearsal space that I hated. As soon as I turned it up, the bass frequencies erupted and the overall sound was awful.

So, is a TR a good idea? I don't know. I do think the speaker makes a very big difference.

I do know that the TR and JBL's weighed more than I liked to lift, even when I was young and fit.

[citizenk74]

Pull out two of the power tubes, max the volume, turn down the tone knobs all the way down and then very gradually turn them up, you should get nice saturated compressed tube tone at small room volume. I never had a TR but it worked with other loud amps with a BF TR tone stack.

Just be sure to pull the right tubes, or you lose the push-pull effect. For Twins or Showmans or Dual Showmans, it's either the two inner or outer 6L6s. Also, with the above mentioned amps, you're still hearing a very clean tone (hi-fi) until it gets uncomfortably loud.

That was my point about archtops with powerful amps: the guitar top provides the compression of the initial attack.

[Sam Sherry]

Nothing compares to the sound of the Twin Reverb. . . . I'm not sure my wife would appreciate it nowaday

The fact that there was a them-a-days when she would have speaks so positively about her.

I don't think they do "sag"

Right. Solid state rectifier.

but if you turn one up you get quite a sustaining tone. Like this:

(Mike Bloomfield + Sunburst Les Paul + dimed Twin)

I'll see you and raise you. Most people had never heard a dimed twin and a sunburst LP until this came screaming across the hifi:

I dig everything about this piece, and nothing more than the righteous, full-on un-corrected clam that is the first note of the second chorus of Bloomfield's solo at 1:45. That, right there, is a novel in a sentence!

[citizenk74]

I enjoy amp threads since I always learn something from the wealth of knowledge on this board. Having played through Twin Reverbs over the years, my main takeaway was their beautiful clean tones at all levels. My ears are still ringing from the time I cranked one back in the 70's. These days however, my clean power amp is a Heritage Patriot, a 45 watt, tube rectified beauty that is perfect for wonderful jazz tones at reasonable levels.

I have a couple of questions about comments some posters have made about sag and compression from a Twin Reverb.

How is sag possible from a Twin Reverb that does not use a rectifier tube?

And does compression occur at only higher volume levels?

To reiterate: that was my point about archtops and Twins. The top of the guitar supplies the equivalent of sag and compression by absorbing the chaotic initial attack and delaying the onset of the note by microseconds. This is my opinion. I think it fits my experience. Let me be clear - a Twin in good shape is going to sound clean up up ear-splitting levels. Audible distortion without a power soak and/or ear protection is going to cause organic damage.