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So, I'm getting pretty tired of the performance of the vintage sealfast tuners on my 1939 L-5.
I replaced the tuners on both my 1932 L-5 and 1937 ES-150 with Waverly replicas, and the performance is a game changer.
(I kept the originals, but I can't ever imagine putting them back on)
From a cursory googling, no one makes a replica sealfast tuner.
Does anybody know if any of the other common tuner replicas share the same foot print?
Bonus points if I could swap the pegs with the original catalin ones.
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11-29-2020 12:05 PM
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I believe whatever Gibson's using on their high end guitars like L-5s and Super 400s have the same housing/footprint. They were made by Schaller at some point, not sure now or if they're even available for purchase.
Next closest are probably Grover Imperials though modern ones have a clipped upper tab, so you'd see part of the old footprint and not sure the post shafts are identical in thickness.
50s-70s Sealfasts have the same footprint but are hard to find and very expensive.
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You may contact Parts Is Parts. They show a picture of some on their website but I was unable to find them in their actual catalog.
Last edited by jasonc; 11-29-2020 at 01:09 PM.
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You could have openbacked ones custom made by Rodgers who are now based in Nova Scotia. They are costly but not that costly compared to trying to find Bullseye tuning machines in working condition.
Schaller used to offer them under the Grandtunes series. I don't see them any longer. Perhaps Gibson signed Schaller to some exclusivity or they were too slow-moving in sales.
Daniel Slaman makes replica Catalin buttons.
My suggestion is to spring for the openback Rodgers with the correct screwmount spacing.
Single Gear Tuners - Rodgers Tuning Machines
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Schaller was making the set called G series Big Jazz. Not sure if they still do. They mount up the same but the shaft size is a bit smaller. They do give you the new bushings with the set. You can make them work without making new holes.
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My luthier disassembled all of the Kluson tuning machines on my early 70's Byrdland, cleaned them, and repacked them with new grease but it didnt make much difference. Either they are too worn (seems doubtful, as the great cosmetic condition of this guitar seems to indicate that it spent more time in the case than on the gig) or (more likely) I want a better gear ratio than these things have. It's not easy to tune precisely and they just aren't all that smooth. All of my more modern guitars are sooooo much better in that regard.
Originally Posted by Max405
@skiboyny thanks for the tip on the Schallers - I've been looking for a same-footprint replacement for ever.
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try contacting this outfit
https://shop.rall-online.net/Schalle...Bigg-Jazz-gold
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In addition to the Schaller G series Big Jazz tuners, in you can find a set, you could get a set of these in a 3+3 "banjo" configuration:
https://www.kluson.com/kluson-6-in-line-or-single-vintage-diecast-series-firebird-tuning-machines-details.html
Kluson 2 Per Side Or Single Vintage Diecast Series Bass Or Banjo Tuning Machines
They have the same footprint as the Sealfast tuners, but are set up like banjo tuners.
They are available in gold, and you can probably choose between metal or plastic buttons.
@$275/set.
Another option is to buy a set of NOS vintage Sealfast tuners, but you are looking at @$1,000-1,200/set. I have a set if you are interested. New, not used.
Grover does make a set of Imperials with tabs on the top and bottom of the plate - the 151 gm set. @$80/set. Here's an example:
Grover Imperial 151GM Tuners Gold 0069788000 006-9788-000Last edited by Hammertone; 11-30-2020 at 02:13 PM.
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My '63 Super-400 came with Grover Imperial tuners on it that were also much too coarse for my liking. I lucked out and got a new set of SCHALLER Sealfast replicas directly from the company. I do not know whether they just had one un-sold set lying around or if these were still in production then, about 6 years ago. <br>That would be your best bet I think as the originals are prohibitively expensive and you never know what you're gonna get ....
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So, I'm checking with Schaller and Rall Guitars to see if they have those recent production Schallers.
That said, I'm sure they'd work better than my originals, but is the 12:1 ratio they offer better than the originals (I have no idea what ratio the originals would be).
Second, do you all think I could remove the gold pegs and replace them with my catalin buttons?
Alternatively, what about "waffleback" tuners. Would that be the same footprint?
https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...-machines.html
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The original Sealfasts have a 12:1 tuning ratio. Originally Posted by campusfive
The reissue Kluson waffleback tuners have a similar shape but a much smaller footprint and post diameter. They have a 15:1 tuning ratio.
The current Grover Imperial 151GM tuners have a 16:1 tuning ratio.
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So, Hammertone, it seems like if I want to improve performance and keep something with the same foot print, I should go with those Grover Imperial 151GM's then? Because the Schaller ones, if they actually have them, would be the same gear ratio as the original? Originally Posted by Hammertone
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I wouldn't be so worried about tuning ratios, what's an extra turn or two? I'd be more concerned w/fit--screw spacing etc.
I sold my last nos set of those Schallers otherwise I'd try to see if Catalin buttons would work on them, I have a few guitars w/them but somehow I don't think so.
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I suspect that the Catalin buttons may not fit as well, based on the big age gap in production, different makers, and possibly slightly different specifications, but I don't know. Originally Posted by wintermoon
My guess is that the footprint of the current Grover Imperial 151GM tuners is very close to that of the old Sealfast tuners, so that a set would look good on your guitar. I don't know if the screwholes would line up, but the area would certainly be covered by the tabs on the new tuners.
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Pardon the ignorant question, what's the story with Waffleback and Imperial tuners? Why are they so much more expensive than regular Grover Rotomatics or Super Rotomatics?
John
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What I don't know about fixing tuners would exactly fill a book on fixing tuners. Originally Posted by campusfive
So, I'm getting pretty tired of the performance of the vintage sealfast tuners on my 1939 L-5.
I replaced the tuners on both my 1932 L-5 and 1937 ES-150 with Waverly replicas, and the performance is a game changer.
(I kept the originals, but I can't ever imagine putting them back on)
From a cursory googling, no one makes a replica sealfast tuner.
Does anybody know if any of the other common tuner replicas share the same foot print?
Bonus points if I could swap the pegs with the original catalin ones.
But, I googled it and there are lots of videos and sites on the subject.
They involve identifying the problem and addressing it, without replacing the bad tuner.
For example:
How to clean and lube dirty old guitar tuners | stewmac.com
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can't do that w/Sealfasts, they're, well, sealed. they're a major pain in the neck to disassemble and easily damaged doing so. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Because guitar consumers embrace the seemingly obscure, traditional, and inexplicably revered. Originally Posted by John A.
The readily available assortment of modern tuners completely ‘wax the hiney’ of the tuners of old.
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But if one is trying to maintain/restore a vintage instrument, surely we can all respect and admire the wish to keep the instrument as original as possible.
I know that sounds ridiculous in terms of making a given guitar play at its best. But I get the reverence some have for a vintage instrument in its original configuration.
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Yes, but there are modern current production Imperials and Wafflebacks (though not Sealfasts). How come they cost more? Originally Posted by Bezoeker
John
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Way above my pay grade to speculate on why this is so. Originally Posted by John A.
I understand the marketing of products like Waverley tuners, and the associated cost premium.
So to speculate...
Presumably the Imperial and Wafflebacks are made in smaller numbers for “discriminating” consumers.
So both the lower quantity (so more fixed cost applied to each unit), and the marketing “cachet” of these tuners are likely the source of the cost premium.
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Originally Posted by John A.
Nicely played. Well, less "discriminating" and more "want to restore their nice old archtop guitars without chopping them up, drilling extra holes in them and so forth, both out of respect as well as the desire to not lose value." Originally Posted by Bezoeker
And I'd say "significantly smaller numbers," not just "smaller numbers."
No different from Waverlys, except that there are MANY more consumers for Waverlys than there are for wafflebacks, Imperials, and Sealfasts.
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I should find someone to tool up and make reissues of these, most other tuners seem to have been reissued by now, haven't they? and while I'm at it make correct reissues of Grover Imperials in the prewar style which look way cooler than what's out there now.
I'd provide a service and make a fortune.
well, maybe not the last part so much
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From the pictures of the underside, there is what may be a plate fitted into the metal (apparently, this depends on the model and I can't be sure about it - it may be plastic and only on newer models). If it were possible to drill a very tiny hole, or two, it would be possible to try the naptha and lubricant procedure that Erlewine did. He injected it into the little hole in the Kluson tuners on a different Gibson model. Originally Posted by wintermoon
Barring that, I think I'd try a naptha (or some solvent) bath to see if enough seeps into the cracks to make a difference. I don't see much downside to that.
My bias is towards keeping vintage instruments in original condition whenever possible.
If they're replaced, what happens to them?
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There are metal plates on the old ones but they're not designed to be disassembled. You can pop out the plates of old Imperials w/out too much trouble and clean/ regrease them. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I'm very into originality too and would try everything I could to keep a guitar so. Many moons ago when I bought my NYer it literally took me 3 yrs of calling every guitar shop in the country to find the correct set of Imperials to restore it. This was pre ebay, it's easier to find what you want now as long as you have patience and deep pockets.
As for drilling holes I probably wouldn't do it, there's no telling if the worm gears are shot.
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