New Heritage Sweet 16s??

[Groyniad]

I'm hoping that someone who knows about Heritage Guitars - can tell me if a sweet 16 made in April 2017 will have had a chance to benefit from the revolution at Heritage Guitars that happened - I believe - in 2016.

I've recently posted about how wonderful their new Eagle Classics are. I have a lead on a new (slightly old stock) Sweet 16 - and my interest in it has a lot to do with the idea that it might have been fine-tuned by the standardisation process going on at the company (in the way I can't help thinking my Classic has been).

I know that some may believe that I've got things the wrong way round here and the thing to hope is that it was made before the relevant changes had a chance to establish themselves. My EC is so fabulous that this is not the way I see things at all - but I appreciate that this is a small sample to extrapolate from....

thanks in advance for help.

[Hammertone]

That does not look like a Heritage bridge to me.

[Groyniad]

the newer ones don't have 16 written on the foot

[Groyniad]

it looks just like my EC bridge (except you can see the screw through the saddle)

[Marty Grass]

This was before all of the changes went into effect.

The type of bridge on an archtop at that time, even a bit earlier, commonly had more to do with that was handy than any design. That bridge saddle was put on Golden Eagles as well as 575s at times. The MOP eagles or 16 on the bridge base when available.

There was an uproar in 2014 when a friend of mine got a Golden Eagle with that type of bridge saddle. He had a discussion with Bill Paige at Heritage about it. Bill's position is that there is no difference in sound between the bridge designs.

[Groyniad]

thanks Marty - I was hoping you'd step in

I was hoping this wasn't the case - but I don't suppose I should worry about it.

are you one of those who think it might be better coming before the change rather than after?

[Groyniad]

and does anyone have any views about that heritage floating pickup?

[Crm114]

You should have a look at the Sweet 16 in the For Sale section, it’s a great guitar.
The floating pickup sound is pretty clear yet full. Also do look on Reverb, Jay Wolfe has two gorgeous custom ordered guitars made by the original guys. those are the best value in my opinion. Trusting CNC work over decades of hand making guitars I do not understand
your mileage may vary

[Hammertone]

This was before all of the changes went into effect.
The type of bridge on an archtop at that time, even a bit earlier, commonly had more to do with that was handy than any design. That bridge saddle was put on Golden Eagles as well as 575s at times. The MOP eagles or 16 on the bridge base when available.
There was an uproar in 2014 when a friend of mine got a Golden Eagle with that type of bridge saddle. He had a discussion with Bill Paige at Heritage about it. Bill's position is that there is no difference in sound between the bridge designs.

I was refering more to the shape of the base and the amount of exposed post. Not the saddle or the lack of inlay. Just an observation, and no big deal - a properly fitted bridge made of the right wood is a fine thing regardless of origin.

[Groyniad]

You should have a look at the Sweet 16 in the For Sale section, it’s a great guitar.
The floating pickup sound is pretty clear yet full. Also do look on Reverb, Jay Wolfe has two gorgeous custom ordered guitars made by the original guys. those are the best value in my opinion. Trusting CNC work over decades of hand making guitars I do not understand
your mileage may vary

so the newer heritage guitars will have been made using CNC equipment - but the older ones not?

that's interesting

[Crm114]

so the newer heritage guitars will have been made using CNC equipment - but the older ones not?

that's interesting

once the full changeover occurred many models are not being made, Heritage is doing solid bodies and semi hollow.

If they agreed to make you a Sweet 16 it would be custom ordered and quite expensive made by guys that never built one (after the exodus of experienced carvers).have a look online at the ones I suggested, talk to Marty about his.

[Jabberwocky]

Hi Groyniad, haven't you been down this road twice before albeit on a much higher level of luthiership with the Andersen Streamline or Model 17?

You looked to have moved away from that kind of carved spruce top acoustic tone. You know I love Andersen archtops and they are on my bucket list.

Just going by the photos of the Heritage Sweet 16 you posted with its 5cm shallow rim and potato crisp thin top I wonder what is in it that entices you that you did not already find and eschew in your former Andersens? I recall you had 3.

In 2011, I found a Sweet 16 for sale at Bernunzio's asking for $2250. Wow, I just realised it has been nearly 10 years. One of the nicer ones I have heard, factory original, not modified by some overenthusiastic other.

PS I have a 2012 LeGrand and just eyeballing your photos, its top isn't even as thin as the Sweet 16 shown-the Sweet 16 can't be more than 2.25mm or 3/32".

[Crm114]

Jumbo
pete Moreno is the best Repsir:restoration guy in the country
he still does ALL gibson and Heritage authorized repairs
youre on a roll mf

[2bornot2bop]

so the newer heritage guitars will have been made using CNC equipment - but the older ones not?

that's interesting

I imagine that answers the question whether or not a current, and expensive, Heritage Sweet 16 is superior to the formerly hand built models.

[339 in june]

so the newer heritage guitars will have been made using CNC equipment - but the older ones not?

that's interesting

I'm far away from Kalamazoo, but I'd be interested in getting a confirmation of that from someone who knows for sure.
My understanding was that CNC was used for rough machining of solid bodies, not for hollowbody plates, but I may be totally wrong.
Hopefully Marty may chime in and let us know

[Marty Grass]

I was refering more to the shape of the base and the amount of exposed post. Not the saddle or the lack of inlay. Just an observation, and no big deal - a properly fitted bridge made of the right wood is a fine thing regardless of origin.

This discussion began with Patrick and Bill Paige. Patrick was upset that some Golden Eagles had the partial base contact with the tops. Bill said that's not important. Both had strong opinions.

[Marty Grass]

so the newer heritage guitars will have been made using CNC equipment - but the older ones not?

that's interesting

To my knowledge the necks are still hand rolled.

Are think the specs are tighter nowadays. The old ones were often fabulous. There is a real craft to carving the bodies.

[Groyniad]

Hi Groyniad, haven't you been down this road twice before albeit on a much higher level of luthiership with the Andersen Streamline or Model 17?

You looked to have moved away from that kind of carved spruce top acoustic tone. You know I love Andersen archtops and they are on my bucket list.

Just going by the photos of the Heritage Sweet 16 you posted with its 5cm shallow rim and potato crisp thin top I wonder what is in it that entices you that you did not already find and eschew in your former Andersens? I recall you had 3.

In 2011, I found a Sweet 16 for sale at Bernunzio's asking for $2250. Wow, I just realised it has been nearly 10 years. One of the nicer ones I have heard, factory original, not modified by some overenthusiastic other.

PS I have a 2012 LeGrand and just eyeballing your photos, its top isn't even as thin as the Sweet 16 shown-the Sweet 16 can't be more than 2.25mm or 3/32".

Thanks for your input man!
Your memory is just unbelievable!
Of course the sweet 16 isn't - on paper even - the same set up as the Andersen's I've had. I had an electric Archie, a 17'' with floater (and an over-wide neck), a model 17 with mounted pickup (red) and a streamline. None of them worked well for me - perhaps because they were too light and over-responsive to get the sound. (the electric Archie came closest and was stunning). but this guitar is 2.75'' deep - 16'' wide and it has a 25.5'' scale (I know you know this of course) - along with a floating pickup. I've never seen that recipe before.

Since then I've been through quite a process. I had an LS17 - and then happened to try a new L5 in a shop in Glasgow and that sent me back to Gibson after a long time in boutique-land. The L5 could not stand up to the 175s I pitted against it. So you're right that I moved away from the carved top sound.

But I had three 175 type instruments (to find out which iteration of that amazing instrument I liked best). Then, to cut a long story short, I gave up one of the 175s, and got a new Eagle Classic (2019). You may have seen my ode to this instrument in a recent post. It seems to me in a different league than the new L5CES.

So that made me take newish Heritage guitars very seriously indeed. (I know you don't like them - though you've been quite magnanimous about the sweet 16 and the Johnny Smith...). The only worry I have about the EC is that its quite big and heavy...I like the sound/feel this delivers but its a bit awkward to sit with for three hours straight. When you add to this the only video reviews that have ever seemed remotely helpful - Rich Seversen's - which include a few very impressive sweet 16 demonstrations - I've become smitten by this unusual Heritage creation.

I loved the Andersen guitars - but I wouldn't swap the EC for an Andersen three times the price.

perhaps I should admit that the pictured guitar was delivered today. it seems rather wonderful.

its pretty heavy too - way heavier than the Andersens - despite its thin looking top. might it be thin near the f-holes but not so thin in other places?

thanks again man - I hope everything is going well with you

[Marty Grass]

The original floating pickups, called Floating #1, #2, and #3 were wound by a local guy named Ken Rambow. They were low output and airy.

Dan Struve is now in charge of operations at Heritage. When he started a few years ago they switched to a higher output humbucker, which is what it looks like your guitar has. I can tell better by looking at the undersurface of the pickguard. The guy who built them is very good and works out of his basement as a hobbyist. But he's absolutely brilliant and highly skilled as a luthier.

[Marty Grass]

I'm hoping that someone who knows about Heritage Guitars - can tell me if a sweet 16 made in April 2017 will have had a chance to benefit from the revolution at Heritage Guitars that happened - I believe - in 2016.

I've recently posted about how wonderful their new Eagle Classics are. I have a lead on a new (slightly old stock) Sweet 16 - and my interest in it has a lot to do with the idea that it might have been fine-tuned by the standardisation process going on at the company (in the way I can't help thinking my Classic has been).

I know that some may believe that I've got things the wrong way round here and the thing to hope is that it was made before the relevant changes had a chance to establish themselves. My EC is so fabulous that this is not the way I see things at all - but I appreciate that this is a small sample to extrapolate from....

thanks in advance for help.

This should be one of the last of the old school. Pete Farmer likely had a strong roll in making it, and he's been working at Heritage a long time, off and on.

[Groyniad]

This should be one of the last of the old school. Pete Farmer likely had a strong roll in making it, and he's been working at Heritage a long time, off and on.

So helpful - and quite a big deal for me given what a commitment this purchase has been.

From what I've learned on this thread I think managing to find a new sweet 16 made by the original guys is about as good a result as I could have hoped for. very difficult to price. if you look you'll find on reverb a really gorgeous new old stock sunburst sweet 16 from at least 10 years ago - and they're asking 6000 pounds for it I believe. I contacted them - and they weren't interested in reducing the price.

I wonder if this pic. helps you identify the pickup Marty

[Crm114]

Congrats on your delivery !!!

[Groyniad]

and Jabber - if I look around at pics of these guitars my top looks typical

it's the height of the bridge that worries me a bit - but they tell me that's how they got it from Heritage in 2017

[Hammertone]

...Trusting CNC work over decades of hand making guitars ...

so the newer heritage guitars will have been made using CNC equipment - but the older ones not?…

…If they agreed to make you a Sweet 16 it would be custom ordered and quite expensive made by guys that never built one (after the exodus of experienced carvers) …

…whether or not a current, and expensive, Heritage Sweet 16 is superior to the formerly hand built models.

…perhaps I should admit that the pictured guitar was delivered today. it seems rather wonderful. its pretty heavy too - way heavier than the Andersens - despite its thin looking top. might it be thin near the f-holes but not so thin in other places?

1. Heritage carved tops and backs have always been machine carved. One of the first things done at Heritage was to build the machine that does that, because Gibson took their carving machine with them when they left Kalamazoo. Once the plates are cut on the machine, they are then further carved/scraped/sanded. Many carved archtop builders use a rough-carving machine of some sort. Some don't, which is their business, but to suggest that doing the rough carving by hand instead of by machine is in any way better is pure BS. I have no idea if Heritage are doing the rough carving for the Eagle Classic / Sweet 16 / other on the old machine or if it has been replaced by a new machine of some sort, but that doesn't change the need for additional processing by carving/scraping/sanding.

2. Carved guitar plates are not of uniform thickness - they vary in thickness depending on where the thickness is measured on the plate. This is really basic to any understanding of how carved archtop instruments are made.

Here are pix of the Heritage carving machine, including one of a young Jim Deurloo (IIRC, he built the machine), and a picture of Gibson's "Green Monster."

[Hammertone]

...and a recent shot of the CNC machine in Nashville for carving Les Paul tops. My guess is that whatever CNC is installed at Heritage for its Les Paul-style models is slightly less massive.