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just for info....phosphor bronze strings weren't around till around the mid 1970's...a d'addario item...
so if you like acoustic archtop jazz (guitarists) before that, it's all on bronze 80/20's...bell-like!
as well as on flat tops!! blues, country, hokum, hank, elvis etc
cheers
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10-09-2020 08:49 PM
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I recall a vaguely similar sound to Perry's from a 30's Gibson L5. A kind of resonance you don't expect. The L5 wasn't quite as bright, though. It reminds me most of the first new notes played with a new set of bright sounding strings. After a few hours, either I acclimate or the strings actually sound duller.
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I think this is really hard call from these videos. For me the modern archtop is a thinner top and back plate producing less pronounced midrange.
Bob Benedetto is generally the one who started that trend. Although there are guitars he's made that have the more trad thicker tops and backs as well.
Eastmans especially the 810CE model is a good example of this newer tone.
For me I prefer the thicker Gibson Johny Smith acoustic tone.I would bet Bryant Trenier makes most of his builds in that style as well.
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I'm going to agree with those saying the recording is odd. I think there's a rather solid compressor on that mic or in post, which is bringing up the finger noise considerably.
I'd like to add that the player is using a lot of open strings in his voicings, which can make the melody sound a bit more "folk."
However, I do hear some serious low-mid punch in this video. Again, the player's style is just sparse. If he decided to use full-fisted 6th, 9th, and 13ths, you'd really hear the wallop.
I think the sound you prefer is one that our friend Romain in Paris has zeroed nicely. Here he is on a 36 Epi Broadway, which Bryant Trenier has drawn a good deal of inspiration from.
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Yes! That is the acoustic archtop sound that I like....
Originally Posted by Kirk1701
That said, I like electric archtops, laminated and carved as well, but if I wanted an acoustic guitar to sound like a Martin, I would play a Martin
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Or you could save a few grand and get an eastman Originally Posted by Stringswinger
if I wanted an acoustic guitar to sound like a Martin, I would play a Martin
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Can anyone tell me something about "floater laminate"? I'm sure it's of a top grade but laminates as a whole are new to me, even though I lived most of my life as a Carpenter.
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Okay, I think what you're hearing is the tight bass response of the Trenier. It is indeed very similar to a D-28.
I would encourage you to plug in some headphones and compare your Trenier video with one featuring a prewar Martin dreadnought. The differences will be subtle at first, but eventually the archtop's midrange will pop out at you.
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Floater laminate, AFAIK, refers to a guitar with a laminated top and a floating pickup, not a set pickup.
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Sure- most laminates have a cutout or two, for set in humbucker type pickups. Bryant is making jazz electric laminates with no cutouts in the top, and he then mounts a floating pickup on the pickguard. Similar to a Gibson Es-165 herb Ellis floater. Originally Posted by Dogfaceboy
A major difference between the Gibson Ellis (besides general design) and Trenier , is the weight. The Trenier is very light with a more pronounced woody acoustic voice, and the Gibson has that heavy thick throaty voice typical of that Gibson sound.
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I liked the sound of the guitar in the OP quite a bit. It met my expectations.
Luthiers make their acoustic archtops to sound... very acoustic. Benedetto etc. The guitars without a pickup have to have a big voice and yes they string them differently too, which leads to squeak city. I like such guitars but my fingers don't tolerate the heavy strings. Plues, the use of these models is strictly solo guitar situations, perhaps with a mic, like a classical guitar. In other words, they're going for something different with these models.
I much preferred the sound of the OP to the second sample (Epiphone?) which sounded comparatively thin and lifeless to me. But of course a valid side-by-side test would make use of identical strings, room, recording equipment and settings etc.
Sinfonietta™ Guitar | Sinfonietta™ Archtop Jazz Guitar | Benedetto Guitars
La Venezia™ Guitar | Benedetto Guitars
Manhattan™ Guitar | Benedetto GuitarsLast edited by GTRMan; 10-10-2020 at 11:21 AM.
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I am a flatwound guy on every guitar I have. Finger squeak to my ears is like a dog whistle or nails on a blackboard. I hate the rough feel also. I am not a floater guy either. I am not into the acoustic sound.
I am a electric archtop player. Always through a amp. Everyone's ear is different and has its specific tonal sweet spot. No wrong answers just individual taste. My son is a rocker. He hates the sound of all archtops. His ears love a overdrive pedal. To me it sounds like a blown speaker.
I am super picky about my specific tonal palate. If there were only Strats and Martins in the world I would play the clarinet.
For my whole life I chased this magical tone in my head with countless guitars and amps. What I realized about 5 years ago is I had that tone all along. I basically dialed everything I had in to sound almost the same. My whole life I was just chasing my tail but it was still a lot of fun. Wasted a lot of moola but no regrets. I had a really blessed guitar life. Loved one wife but a total archtop whore.
My wife said to me once : Why do you need all these guitars ? They all sound exactly the same.
She is 100% correct but I will never admit to it. LOL.....
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This loar guy definitely read the benedetto book. Sounds just like a martin.
Personally, I think versatility is just the hallmark of a great instrument.
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That was sweet. Not too many of those hanging around. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Carter Vintage is good. I'm a customer.
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[QUOTE=vinnyv1k;1067215 Loved one wife but a total archtop whore. [/QUOTE]
No, no. You're an archtop Playboy!
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We all have different tastes. Which is a wonderful thing. For me, this video is the opposite of what I'm looking for in an acoustic archtop sound. That "cut" which was so necessary a little less than a hundred years ago, sounds harsh, strident, nasally and boxy. Admittedly I'm a Trenier aficionado, but the videos at the beginning of the thread are more of what I'm looking for tonally in a great acoustic archtop. Although I don't use bronze strings for many of the reasons already discussed. I also think the Trenier clips sound very different than a flattop guitar. But again, to each their own! Originally Posted by Kirk1701
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Here's an acoustic archtop of extraordinary beauty.
La Venezia |
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And during my guardianship of the 35 Excel, bronze strings will get nowhere near it. Originally Posted by Max405
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Exactly. As we used to say in the American Biker subculture, "one man's queen is another man's sweathog" Originally Posted by D'Aquisto Fan
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Those clips have me thinking that Johnny Smith may be the progenitor of the "modern jazz" sound. Tal Farlow might be the exemplar of the old-school thunky tone.
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I see both of those guys as very old school. TF was an electric archtop player from the bebop school while JS was an acoustic archtop player from the cool jazz school. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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This works for me....
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Many wonderful instruments and sounds here, and really exciting players, who I did not even know, a really worthful reading and listening.
Many of us are using the two words "bright" and "flattopy" as synonyms, especially when reflecting the starting Perry Beekman video.
I think it is not quite true. I would use the open/close instead when describe flattop/archtop, and keep the bright/warm as an other dimension. If we string a Martin with flatwounds, it will not became "archtopy". It will still keep its open character, but turns to be warm, and supposedly not in a good way.
Similarly, the starting Perry Beekman video, is not flattopy. It is not open, instead a narrowed, closed sound, which is an attribute of the archtop. Yes it is true, it has bright strings, so it is bright.
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For flat top comparisons, a Martin 00 or other small bodied fingerstyle flat top maybe. Martin D28's are too bass heavy and boomy for comparisons sake.
The Trenier was great. It was interesting and 3 dimensional. The Epiphone was, for me, thin and tinny and exactly what I want to avoid in an acoustic archtop sound. Of course with string differences, recordings, et al, it's always going to difficult to actually compare the guitars. But we can compare the sounds that were captured on particular recordings. Everything else fell somewhere in between those two end points.
It is good we have diverse tastes. And that we can own many guitars and amps and enjoy the different sounds they make.
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Interesting post - and lots of different personal opinions on Perry’s tone playing the Trenier.
We can’t lose sight of the fact that an Archtop guitar was designed to be played acoustically, and evolved along with music itself. The introduction of an electric pickup changed the original intent of an acoustic Archtop guitar , and required some internal changes to prevent feedback. Gibson guitars continued to become heavier and focused on a plug in experience, which seems to be what most electric jazz players on this forum prefer.
D’Angelico’s even changed , and I feel the transitional models in the early 40’s with floaters - bridged the gap perfectly for that time period. They were amplified , but retained that pure, fat , sweet acoustic tone - and weren’t wet sounding or thin.
So - when it comes to determining the modern Archtop sound - one cannot simply put there finger on it , because jazz music has not evolved like other forms of music. Will players like Pasquale and the new breed create a movement of style and sound which future generations will want to emulate ? Will they continue to play Archtops , or switch to Telecasters like Julian Lage - who knows.
Until the future presents itself (long after most of us are gone )- we will all continue to play on guitars which bring us BACK to the music we enjoy replicating.
For me , I’m a chord melody style guitar player who enjoys creating arrangements from music written in the 30’-40’s - and to my senses - nothing beats the sound of an un amplified acoustic Archtop guitar.
The “past“ will always be “modern “ sounding to me when it comes to re- creating music from my favorite period.Last edited by QAman; 10-10-2020 at 09:14 PM.
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