When Did Acoustic Archtops become Electric?

[doc w]

I know that there was a fairly quick shift from purely acoustic archtops to archtops with pickups. Is there a point when the carving of the top and the acoustic qualities of the instrument no long really mattered? For example, if I have an L-5 made in the 70s, is it going to sound as good acoustically as one from the 30s or 40s?

[silvertonebetty]

I know that there was a fairly quick shift from purely acoustic archtops to archtops with pickups. Is there a point when the carving of the top and the acoustic qualities of the instrument no long really mattered? For example, if I have an L-5 made in the 70s, is it going to sound as good acoustically as one from the 30s or 40s?

I played a 1932 charly christian and it had came with a pickup from factory

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[customxke]

I know that there was a fairly quick shift from purely acoustic archtops to archtops with pickups. Is there a point when the carving of the top and the acoustic qualities of the instrument no long really mattered? For example, if I have an L-5 made in the 70s, is it going to sound as good acoustically as one from the 30s or 40s?

They didn't just take an acoustic L5 and chop it up for pickups. Historically, archtops intended to be used with set in pickups had a heavier carved top than an acoustic guitar.

[wintermoon]

An acoustic L5 from the 70s won't typically sound as good as a 30s 40s L5, but of course there are exceptions.

[ThatRhythmMan]

The ES-150 was introduced in 1936. The pickup we know as the Charlie Christian was the magnetic blade pickup, originally used on lap steel guitars, introduced there in 1935. Gibson basically just added the pickup to the L-50 which at the time had a carved spruce top and typically a flat back.

I don’t know if that was the first example, but it was the first commercially successful example.

[myhandhurts]

The ES-150 was introduced in 1936. The pickup we know as the Charlie Christian was the magnetic blade pickup, originally used on lap steel guitars, introduced there in 1935. Gibson basically just added the pickup to the L-50 which at the time had a carved spruce top and typically a flat back.

I don’t know if that was the first example, but it was the first commercially successful example.

Was the bracing changed along with the introduction of the pickup?

[Kirk1701]

The ES-150 was the first commercially successful electric guitar that wasn't a lapsteel. It was introduced in 1936. This is the Charlie Christian guitar. Note that "ES" stands for "Electric Spanish," meaning this was always intended as an electric guitar.

An acoustic archtop like an Epiphone Emperor or D'Angelico New Yorker will feedback very easily with a floating pickup. Therefore the design of the archtop underwent gradual changes from 1936 on, especially at Gibson.

The solid spruce tops eventually gave way to laminates. The hand-carved tops were also replaced by steam-pressed, both of which created a more rigid top that resisted electric feedback, but also deadened the acoustic properties.

The Gibson ES guitars were by the late 1940s mostly laminate woods and pressed tops. Examples are T-Bone Walker's ES-5, along with the ubiquitous ES-175 and ES-295.

As the fifties dawned, Gibson, Epiphone, and Gretsch (among many others) all had electric archtops of similar builds. Top-mounted pickups, a mix of laminate and solid woods, as well as mix of carved or pressed tops.

It's impossible to be dogmatic about any catalogue of this period being as woods and metals were rationed for the war efforts. Many craftsmen enlisted leaving quality holes in production staffs.

The Fender Broadcaster hit shops in 1950, which was pretty much an atom bomb on the guitar industry. Suddenly the hollow-body electric was seen as out-of-date. Gibson released the Les Paul in 1952, which gave jazzers a more refined option.

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[dconeill]

Also bear in mind that acoustic archtops weren't made to have particularly good tone, they were designed to be LOUD acoustically, and also to be rather percussive. Remember that their function was to provide harmonic and rhythmic underpinning to a big band using the guitar's acoustic properties only.

E.g., a '30's acoustic L5 isn't going to sound much like a '30's Martin OM.

As others have pointed out, an archtop that was built to be played acoustically will have been built rather differently than an archtop that was meant to be played electrically.

What is it that the OP is trying to achieve?

[christianm77]

And modern archtops are generally designed more with balance and evenness in mind than acoustic cut.

the music changed of course. Most jazz guitarists don’t spend their time playing acoustic rhythm and punching out strident chord solos. Most players prefer a smooth single note tone and nicely separated chords... more sustain too.

that said, my 60s Gibson ES175 is strangely old school; it carries over some that old school almost gypsy vibe. Certainly not an acoustic box, but with acoustic character, strident, short sustain etc.

[nopedals]

Postwar laminates. Electric Gibsons before that were acoustic guitars with pickups. In other words, a prewar ES-300 is a carved top L7 routed with a pickup, a postwar ES-300 is a laminate; great electric guitar, but not really an acoustic. Later ES guitars including L5CES are not really acoustic guitars. The Johnny Smith is an acoustic with a pickup. But 1946 or so is the year when Gibson started making pro guitars that really require being plugged in.

[doc w]

Also bear in mind that acoustic archtops weren't made to have particularly good tone, they were designed to be LOUD acoustically, and also to be rather percussive. Remember that their function was to provide harmonic and rhythmic underpinning to a big band using the guitar's acoustic properties only.

E.g., a '30's acoustic L5 isn't going to sound much like a '30's Martin OM.

As others have pointed out, an archtop that was built to be played acoustically will have been built rather differently than an archtop that was meant to be played electrically.

What is it that the OP is trying to achieve?

The OP is just curious and learning a lot from this thread!

[icr]

As mentioned, electric lap steel guitars with magnetic pickups and associated amplifiers came on the scene first. This set the stage for the subsequent amplification of archtops. The blade pickup design and amplifiers for the pickup, were already available when the ES-150 came out.

Also, as mentioned, the bracing on the ES-150 was an X, rather than the near- parallel bars of its full acoustic cousin, the L-50.
The third screw for the CC pickup goes right through the middle of the X.

[Jim Soloway]

The OP is just curious and learning a lot from this thread!

This site really shines on topics like this. Lots of serious knowledge coupled with a generous spirit.

[myhandhurts]

As mentioned, electric lap steel guitars with magnetic pickups and associated amplifiers came on the scene first. This set the stage for the subsequent amplification of archtops. The blade pickup design and amplifiers for the pickup, were already available when the ES-150 came out.

Also, as mentioned, the bracing on the ES-150 was an X, rather than the near- parallel bars of its full acoustic cousin, the L-50.
The third screw for the CC pickup goes right through the middle of the X.

Yup....not a good candidate for a middle pickup! [or for a bidge pickup]. Thanx for the pic!

[dcrowe]

Though it is not about jazz, The Birth of Loud by Ian Port is a great read about how Leo Fender and Les Paul hung out together after work in the '40's at Les' backyard in Hollywood sharing ideas about how to increase the volume of guitars. Their ideas birthed the Telecaster and the Les Paul (and Fender amps).

Dan

[silvertonebetty]

The ES-150 was introduced in 1936. The pickup we know as the Charlie Christian was the magnetic blade pickup, originally used on lap steel guitars, introduced there in 1935. Gibson basically just added the pickup to the L-50 which at the time had a carved spruce top and typically a flat back.

I don’t know if that was the first example, but it was the first commercially successful example.

Really not till 36 . Lain claimed his was a 32 . Some one spent 1200 on getting it rebraced


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[wintermoon]

That rhythm man is correct, '35 for the steel, '36 for the guitar.

[ThatRhythmMan]

This is a first year 1936, all original except for new frets. It’s one of my absolute favorite electric archtops ever. The tone is really hard to beat. It has the original unnotched bar in the pickup. I’ve never found this to give me any balance issues.

[silvertonebetty]

That rhythm man is correct, '35 for the steel, '36 for the guitar.

Either way it was the nicest acoustic I’ve ever played


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[wintermoon]

This is a first year 1936, all original except for new frets. It’s one of my absolute favorite electric archtops ever. The tone is really hard to beat. It has the original unnotched bar in the pickup. I’ve never found this to give me any balance issues.

Nice one TRM, but the control knobs should be bakelite w arrows on top
btw, the lighter colored one is the volume knob and should located in the lighter area of the sunburst, they're reversed in this pic.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Nice one TRM, but shouldn't the control knobs be bakelite w arrows on top?

They are Bakelite, but a slightly different style that I’ve seen on a few others from 1936. A couple of the authorities seem to believe they are original to the guitar as well, so I’m going with it. No ultimate matter to me, as it’s not one I ever plan on selling.

[wintermoon]

New one on me, who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

[archtopeddy]

the lighter colored one is the volume knob and should located in the lighter area of the sunburst, they're reversed in this pic.

I didn't know this about the two different colored knobs (the lighter one being designed for the lighter area of the sunburst). Very cool design touch. Learn something new everyday here at Jazz Guitar Online. Thanks wintermoon.

[Litterick]

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.

[lawson-stone]

I have a 1954 L50 that I would love to put a CC pickup in, but it's parallel braced. Sigh.