Cheap woody thunk guitar rec needed

[Gitterbug]

I'm beginning to catch up with you phrase-coiners. I've owned two af-105s. The af-125 is fancier but basically similar: a robust maple laminate body, 15.5" IIRC, and a three-piece neck, mostly maple. Where would the thunk come from? The acoustic qualities are meager. The ES-175 illuminati claim that old, lightly built ones thunk (a new verb here?), while the newer ones don't. Agree, sort of. But doesn't the OP face a mission impossible? After all, the L-5 illuminati say old ones thunk, the newer with heavier tops don't. How on Earth does one expect to find a lightweight archtop with a carved top and two humbuckers (thus excluding a full-bodied ES-125) at a three-digit price? And, if it thunks, it likely howls, too.

[jazzkritter]

Jacks correct....Definitely check out the Ibanez line. Best kept thunk secret there is. Many available on the used markets for under 500$ New in the 600 up range.
My vote is for the AF95FM it’s my knock around to protect my AF200 and PM200. Yet it’s good enough to gig with.
12 or 13 TI Jazz Swings and you’re thunking away!
As to Tal’s sound, his recording guitars were not full deep bodied. They were not skinny like a 335, sorta half way between that and a full archtop.
good luck!

[Hammertone]

Man that Tal Farlow album is great, perfect thunking tone! I know that thinking a bigger body doesn’t always equate to more thunk but there’s just something about 17”’s that doesn’t for me. There’s an Ibanez AF125 on Craigslist not too far from me, I’ll have to check it out. Just to summarize, I am well aware I’ll never get real thunk from cheap, I’m fine with an imitation. This won’t be my main guitar, just something I can leave at work nights and perhaps weekends and not have a stroke. My Monarch does a nice job of thunk albeit much more muted than a 175, I’m very happy with it, but it’s my main axe and I need to protect it. thanks for the responses all

Does it need a cutaway?

[Triple_Jazz]

I would prefer a cutaway though it doesn’t “need” one, I’m very unlikely to buy something without cutaway

[John A.]

I would prefer a cutaway though it doesn’t “need” one, I’m very unlikely to buy something without cutaway

The Kingpin II has a cutaway, but P90s, so maybe not what you want.

John

[Greentone]

I've been following these pages since 2009. As a non-native English speaker, I don't even know what "thunk" exactly means. I think the word has started to appear only lately. How about replacing it with "convenience"? I'm sure an EPI ES-339 would help you through your lunch breaks just fine, if a 335 does. It's a Swiss Army knife for a guitar - and for the price.

Gitterbug,

"Thunk" is a somewhat deep, percussive "rap" on the front end of the envelope of the note that _some_ archtop guitars produce when you play single-note lines. In some way, it is like the percussive front end of an upright bass played pizzicato. IME, thunk happens when playing Gibson laminate build guitars of the full-depth ES series (ES 150 post war, ES 175, ES 300, ES 350, Tal Farlow, and even the humble ES 125).

If I have noticed it at all, it has been to a much less noticeable extent on the carved body archtops. The Tal, the ES 350 and the ES 175 have consistently been the "thunkiest" guitars that I have played. This attack sounds _very_ jazzy.

[John A.]

Gitterbug,

"Thunk" is a somewhat deep, percussive "rap" on the front end of the envelope of the note that _some_ archtop guitars produce when you play single-note lines. In some way, it is like the percussive front end of an upright bass played pizzicato. IME, thunk happens when playing Gibson laminate build guitars of the full-depth ES series (ES 150 post war, ES 175, ES 300, ES 350, Tal Farlow, and even the humble ES 125).

If I have noticed it at all, it has been to a much less noticeable extent on the carved body archtops. The Tal, the ES 350 and the ES 175 have consistently been the "thunkiest" guitars that I have played. This attack sounds _very_ jazzy.

Yes, that's the way I hear it too, though before JZ thunk up "thunk" I thunk of it as "thwap."

John

[Greentone]

Hammertone,

Cutaway unnecessary. ES-125, laminate-body ES-150, and ES-300 will thunk like mad. I had a '62 ES-125T that thunked as authoritatively as any 175 I've played, come to think of it.

An ES-300 is a great way to get the feel and sound of a golden era ES-350 without having to sell a kidney. You can really get Tal's sound. Now...if only I had Tal's hands.

Here's a photo of the ES-300 I used to "have." (My buddy/vintage dealer let me long-term keep it for six months and "evaluate" it for him.)

[Gitterbug]

Thanks, Greentone and all. This is getting really interesting. An elusive, you-know-it-when-you-feel-it property that is not strictly related to body size, carved vs. laminate, acoustic volume etc. My 5th Ave has more of it than any other current jazz axe. A -45 Levin had plenty, but it was carved so thin it was impossible to play it through an amp.

I hereby send in my application to join the "ES-350 back!" choir.

[christianm77]

I’d go Godin and leave the strings on for a decade or so

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

Gitterbug,

"Thunk" is a somewhat deep, percussive "rap" on the front end of the envelope of the note that _some_ archtop guitars produce when you play single-note lines. In some way, it is like the percussive front end of an upright bass played pizzicato. IME, thunk happens when playing Gibson laminate build guitars of the full-depth ES series (ES 150 post war, ES 175, ES 300, ES 350, Tal Farlow, and even the humble ES 125).

If I have noticed it at all, it has been to a much less noticeable extent on the carved body archtops. The Tal, the ES 350 and the ES 175 have consistently been the "thunkiest" guitars that I have played. This attack sounds _very_ jazzy.

Agreed 100% Greentone.

DB

[Woody Sound]

I've always wondered if the p90 vs the humbucker affects the thunk.

[vinlander]

I tried my best tinkering my Epi Joe Pass and top routed Regent to get some thunk out of them but never was successful.
Tried with different humbuckers and even Pete Biltoft CC, different bridges and could get some good tones but never any thunk.
Maybe it is because of the thick laminated spruce top or the overall construction...
It seems the thunk is really dependent on the wood and construction and no matter what you try you can't escape that fact.
Actually you can hear the thunk to an extent even unplugged, it was immediate when I received my Tal and stroke the first notes...
Same with my p90 equipped '59 125, plenty of thunk!

[Gitterbug]

Er... now that we have the thunk identified and rounded up, how important is it? From the previous posts one can easily deduct that 80-90% of all-time jazz guitars - and possibly none in current production - don't have it.

[Greentone]

Gitterbug,

The great sounding D'Angelicos, D'Aquistos, L-5CES, Super-400, and many other fantastic archtops played by the outstanding jazz guitarists of the 50s-70s didn't "thunk."

I never missed the thunk on a Johnny Smith chart, or a George Van Eps chart, or a Barnes and Pizzarelli chart, etc.

OTOH, "thunk" really drives the sound of Tal Farlow, Joe Pass, and many other guitarists who employed ES-350 and ES-175 instruments.

It's all good, ultimately.

[jzucker]

it's important if that's the sound you hear in your head. You can't universally make a statement about thunk. for me, it's an important component of the tone I hear in my head and yet, I also love the sound of a solid spruce top guitar that has no thunk. Ideally I'd have both.

And to woody, it has nothing to do with the pickups.

[John A.]

I've always wondered if the p90 vs the humbucker affects the thunk.

If you listen to the links I posted above, there are both pickup types there on the same type of guitar (e.g., Jim Hall's P90 175 and Joe Pass's HB 175). It's present on both. You can also hear it on early Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney with Charlie Christian pickups. I have a Godin Kingpin, and I don't think it has much thunk, but to the extent that it does, it has more of it with flats than round wounds, so I think that's also a factor, but it's mainly what the guitar is made of and how it's made. I suspect the laminate Gibson uses (maple/poplar/maple plies, as opposed to other companies' all-maple laminates, or the Godin's thin cherry laminate) makes a big difference.

John

[Greentone]

I'm with Jack. I like to have both sounds, thunk and non-thunk, at my disposal.

When I do a show with a laminated-body archtop that thunks I think, "why don't I use this all the time?" Then, I'll do a show with a carved-body archtop and think, "That's the ticket...doesn't get any better."

I guess that's why I don't have a ham sandwich every day. Variety affords satisfaction.

[jzucker]

I'm with Jack. I like to have both sounds, thunk and non-thunk, at my disposal.

When I do a show with a laminated-body archtop that thunks I think, "why don't I use this all the time?" Then, I'll do a show with a carved-body archtop and think, "That's the ticket...doesn't get any better."

I guess that's why I don't have a ham sandwich every day. Variety affords satisfaction.

and the same experience listening. I hear kreisberg and think it's the perfect thunky jazz tone and then I hear peter bernstein and change my mind.

[Gitterbug]

I'm "thunkful" for all the comments and clarifications but still puzzled. When I listened trough some of the suggested samples by jazz guitar greats (albeit from a laptop), I heard familiar, great music and signature sounds, not thunks. Jack Z, you have stated that the semi-hollow you often use on your videos is your favorite guitar. When you produce fluid rapid-fire runs from it, should I be hearing 32 thunks to the bar? I'm playing dumb here ("Act naturally" - Ringo Starr), but my provisional conclusion is: thunk is more important for the player who senses it, aurally and physically, than for the listener. A jazz guitar doesn't have to have this property to be "good". This is why I suggested convenience, not as a synonym, but as a down-to-earth criterion to consider, for OP's lunch-hour playing.

[Greentone]

Here's "Cherokee" done by Tal Farlow on his old ES-350 (I believe). See (hear) if you don't think there is plenty of thunk on his bop lines.

[Greentone]

Here is Richmond, Virginia's Chris Whiteman playing in his guitar/organ duo. He uses a very thunky ES-175. Hear it?

[Gitterbug]

Greentone, what I'm hearing through my laptop is an incredible combination of attack, precision and speed by Tal Farlow, and a judicious use of reverb&delay in Chris Whiteman's tone. Attack has to do with the player, guitar, pick, strings, PU and amp. Am I right in believing that a thunker thunks also when played acoustically?

[wzpgsr]

Thunk reminds me of how a bass guitar strung with flats sounds when played with a pick, only translated into the register of electric guitar. The plunk (sorry) of the initial pick attack dies before the note finishes sustaining.

[lawson-stone]

Yo, forum-ites!

Any examples of live "thunk?'

Thank you.

Isn't that Joe Pass "Joy Spring" album a live album?