Trouble Bonding with Guitar

**Bill Eisele** · 07-19-2020, 02:14 PM

Hi all,

I was wondering if some of you have had trouble bonding with a “new to you“ guitar once you received it and started playing it.

About a year ago, I purchased an archtop guitar in “very good“ condition from a dealer. I thought I had asked all the right questions in order to obtain full disclosure about the condition of the guitar and any repairs that had been made to it. I was assured that the guitar was in great shape for its age and no disclosures were made about repairs. I received the guitar and had it inspected by my local luthier. He pointed out that the guitar had gone through a fret level above about the tenth fret as the binding nibs were missing. No big deal. Otherwise, I felt that the guitar was as described by the dealer with minor nicks, scratches and buckle rash.

About a couple months later, I started to run into minor issues with the guitar. First the volume pot failed and I had it replaced. Then the replacement failed and I replaced it myself because I didn’t want to have it sitting for weeks at the luthier for a simple pot replacement. Then it developed grounding noise problems so I replaced the output jack and filed paint off the tailpiece where the string balls contact the tailpiece. I also added copper foil in some key locations to provide better contact between the tailpiece and the ground wire going to the output jack. The guitar was very quiet after that. I then didn’t have any problems with the guitar until I noticed that the low E and A strings were buried in the nut slots and sounded muffled compared to the other strings (not sure how that got past me). So, I removed the nut with great difficulty (copious amounts of glue were used to secure the nut) and installed a new nut. Then two of the tuners seemed to bind when the associated strings were brought up to pitch. After ensuring that the nut slots weren’t the problem, I removed the offending tuners and rubbed the shafts with a wax. After re-installing them they worked fine with no binding. Then I noticed that the D string at pitch would play flat when fretted all the way up the neck. After examining the nut slot and bridge I concluded that it had to be a false string. Replacement of the string confirmed that it was false. So, that concludes the saga of repairs to date. Sorry about the tedious description of the minor problems and repairs but I wanted to convey the level of frustration I have had with the guitar. But it doesn’t end there.

In the midst of all these repairs I discovered that the guitar I purchased was the same guitar I had passed up on at another dealer because that dealer disclosed a repair that I wasn’t comfortable with. The previous dealer indicated that the fingerboard had swelled in the area where the neck joins the body. So, the frets in that area had been removed along with the binding and the fingerboard was planed down to remove the hump. New frets were installed along with the old binding. After learning about the repair I inspected the guitar and it was obvious from the crookedness of the binding that the repair had been performed and that is why the binding nibs were missing. Otherwise, the repair is not detectable. I contacted the dealer from whom I had purchased the guitar and asked him about the repair and why it wasn’t disclosed. He indicated that it was a non-issue and these sorts of repairs are made all the time so it wasn’t worth mentioning. I initially took exception to his characterization of the repair but he was convincing and I finally accepted his explanation.

So, with all this said, I have had trouble bonding with the guitar for all the reasons stated above. At this time, it sounds and plays well, but I’m waiting for the next problem to arise as if the guitar is inhabited by gremlins. Or, perhaps I’m waiting for the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from the Ghostbusters movie to crawl out of one of the f holes! You might say that I have resolved all the issues and should just enjoy the guitar at this point.

So, what would you do in my situation and have you had similar experiences? Would you keep the guitar or sell it with full disclosure of the repair to the fretboard? My other option would be to send it out of state to a competent restorer and have them thoroughly go over the guitar and replace the wonky binding and fix the nicks and scratches while it’s there.

Sorry for the long winded post, but your thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill

**Jabberwocky** · 07-19-2020, 06:09 PM

Sorry to hear about that. Sell it with full disclosure and take a haircut possibly. Hope that you get luckier the next time. Shame on the dealer who sold it to you. PM me his name as I would like to avoid him.

You just gotta move on from it.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-19-2020, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note

Wow. Sorry. That's a nightmare. Shame on the seller!
That's a lot of problems, and ones that speak of deeper issues. Some things may be seasonal, the changes in the neck can put a clear sounding instrument in a different geometry if you don't adjust seasonally. But from your description, it's a lot of work and somehow, personally, if I know an instrument is not solid, I don't feel I can rely on it to be what I need going forward. I play an instrument expecting it to get better. A good instrument will also make me a better player as we bring out the better parts of one another. If I can't have that expectation, I'd have issues keeping it.
There are lots of instruments out there. You can find a match. There are lots of players and luthiers out there. You can find a match. I've bought a lot of guitars that've seen hard times, and given them the care and attention they need; they rarely work out $$ wise to turn around, but sometimes they need that.
I wouldn't wrestle with what is in essence an unreliable or even defective guitar if I wasn't going to fix it myself. Life is too short.
Sell it honestly, and hope you find your match. It's well worth it to find the "right one". You can look back and say it's a million dollar guitar.

Thanks for your insights, Jimmy blue note. I would say that any one of the issues on their own besides the fretboard repair would be a minor inconvenience but collectively they are a pain and create a sense of mistrust about the guitar. And, I have learned enough over time to recognize the seasonal changes to a guitar and make the necessary adjustments to bring it back into playing condition. So, far the collective wisdom is to sell it with full disclosure (which, of course, I was going to do), probably at a loss. My only hesitation is that it’s a relatively rare guitar but I don’t think that will stop me from listing it.

The one obstacle that I have found to finding the perfect match is the inability to visit the big name shops that carry archtop guitars and sample and compare a good number of them in one sitting. I guess it was possible to do so pre-COVID-19 by flying to those locations but you might go through your guitar savings fairly quickly with travel expenses. My guess is that most of us buy and sell to find the right match, but that in itself can be costly and time consuming.

And, lastly, given the issues with the guitar, which have essentially been resolved barring anything new, how much of a reduction percentage-wise should be taken off the selling price, particularly for the fretboard repair?

**Jabberwocky** · 07-19-2020, 07:00 PM

Its being a relatively rare guitar changes the complexion of things. While I am leery of throwing good money after bad, given that it is relatively rare, have you considered sending it to someone to have the fretboard replaced and the neck reset, if need be? Cris Mirabella would be my first consideration. It won't be cheap though and you may never recover the cost but if it is a grail guitar it may be worth it.

I bought a nylon string guitar with a cracked headstock that was not well repaired. It buzzed at certain notes. I sent it back to its maker and had an entirely new neck made for it. The new neck cost me $2000. I know I may never recover the $2000 but it is a very nice looking and sounding nylon string guitar and I wanted to save it. It is so much better now after the neck replacement that it feels like getting a new guitar with an aged spruce top.

If this were a 1929 L5 I would do anything in my powers to save it.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-19-2020, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Sorry to hear about that. Sell it with full disclosure and take a haircut possibly. Hope that you get luckier the next time. Shame on the dealer who sold it to you. PM me his name as I would like to avoid him.

You just gotta move on from it.

Thanks for your reply and condolences, Jabberwocky! I am pretty much convinced that I will sell, and absolutely with full disclosure. And, it makes sense that I will have to discount the sales price based on the fretboard repair. I’m hesitant to mention the dealers name even in a PM because I have previously had dealings with this seller and found them to be honest, helpful, and forthcoming about the guitars they sell. So, I feel like this was a one off situation that shouldn’t be repeated. Not sure why I didn’t have a good experience this time, but it has made me more wary about buying used guitars. And, I want to clarify that it was not an individual seller on this forum nor was the guitar advertised on this forum.

**neatomic** · 07-19-2020, 07:09 PM

no doubt the seller pulled a fast one..to say that a refretting of a guitar from twelfth fret up "was a non-issue and these sorts of repairs are made all the time" is totally bogus...however i will say, if the repair was decently done, except for the cosmetic nibs/binding, it should be fine

you installed the bourne pot, so you should be good to go...the rest can happen, but also try to resist the idea of self diagnosing nut slot heights and fine intonation, unless you really have some experience and know how...not to diminish your skills, but a guitar is a very holistic instrument...one thing feeds another..you can make matters worse

you must have liked the guitar well enough that you searched it out in the first place, my opinion is don't give up on it yet...chances are it can be made to your liking...and with minimal further investment vs selling at a loss

i understand the bad taste that something like this leaves, but...a skilled repairman can make even the seemingly worst of guitars playable..keep the faith

luck

cheers

ps- i remember Joe D received a guitar broken in transit..(hence, nicknamed- booboo)...rather than just give up on it, he had it repaired and made it sing!..sure it's still singing somewhere

**Bill Eisele** · 07-19-2020, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Its being a relatively rare guitar changes the complexion of things. While I am leery of throwing good money after bad, given that it is relatively rare, have you considered sending it to someone to have the fretboard replaced and the neck reset, if need be? Cris Mirabella would be my first consideration. It won't be cheap though and you may never recover the cost but if it is a grail guitar it may be worth it.

I bought a nylon string guitar with a cracked headstock that was not well repaired. It buzzed at certain notes. I sent it back to its maker and had an entirely new neck made for it. The new neck cost me $2000. I know I may never recover the $2000 but it is a very nice looking and sounding nylon string guitar and I wanted to save it. It is so much better now after the neck replacement that it feels like getting a new guitar with an aged spruce top.

If this were a 1929 L5 I would do anything in my powers to save it.

Not anything like a 1929 L5, but of much more recent vintage. It’s just that there weren’t many of them made. If it was a 1929 L5 it would definitely go to Cris. If I was to keep it, I would probably send it to Pete Moreno, who did a fantastic restoration of a Trenier Broadway for me that suffered from an assortment of nicks, scratches, buckle rash, and some gouges in the headstock where someone carelessly used a peg winder. It came back to me looking like it was almost a new guitar. It’s such a lovely guitar that I felt it deserved to be restored and I’m glad that I sent it to Pete based on a forum member’s recommendation.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-19-2020, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

no doubt the seller pulled a fast one..to say that a refretting of a guitar from twelfth fret up "was a non-issue and these sorts of repairs are made all the time" is totally bogus...however i will say, if the repair was decently done, except for the cosmetic nibs/binding, it should be fine

you installed the bourne pot, so you should be good to go...the rest can happen, but also try to resist the idea of self diagnosing nut slot heights and fine intonation, unless you really have some experience and know how...not to diminish your skills, but a guitar is a very holistic instrument...one thing feeds another..you can make matters worse

you must have liked the guitar well enough that you searched it out in the first place, my opinion is don't give up on it yet...chances are it can be made to your liking...and with minimal further investment vs selling at a loss

i understand the bad taste that something like this leaves, but...a skilled repairman can make even the seemingly worst of guitars playable..keep the faith

luck

cheers

ps- i remember Joe D recieved a guitar broken in transit..booboo..rather than just give up on it, he had it repaired and made it sing!..sure it's still singing somewhere

Thanks for your thoughts and encouragement, neatomic. The guitar does play well in the area where the repair was done. I just checked the fret levels a few days ago and everything is perfect except the tiniest rocking on one that could be easily remedied by a qualified tech. Yes, you remember the Bourne pot that I installed after the first pot failed. And, while I have experimented with making nuts and cutting slots, I opted for a pre-made nut from StewMac with the exact dimensions of the original nut save for the overly deep slots. It just needed some filing to fit into the slot and some polishing of the surfaces and string slots. It may not be as finely tuned as it could be, but it’s a vast improvement over the original and will serve its purpose until I get it to someone more qualified than myself. The COVID situation has prevented me from venturing far from the house to get the guitar to my luthier, hence some of the minor repairs on my own. And, I will heed your advice about not getting into self-diagnosis and repair above my skill level.

I will give some thought to getting the guitar inspected and restored. I have great faith in Pete Moreno and will send it to him if I decide to keep it.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-19-2020, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note

I don't know what you paid for it, but would it be impossible to ask for what you paid? Say it's a straight turnaround?
It may be someone is looking for that rare niche, and is attracted by the opportunity to buy it. Then maybe offer to pay the shipping and take a hundred off in gratitude. Just for starters?
It's a bad deal you got dropped in your lap. If you thought it was a good enough deal when you bought it, someone else may be looking too. Doesn't hurt to start there. Nothing to feel guilty about.

I'm assuming that the seller slammed the door in your face?

I paid $5500 for it, which was a fair market price for the guitar in very good condition, minus the undisclosed repair. I have no idea how much the repair devalues the guitar. I have seen the same guitar advertised in excellent condition for about $1000 more. So, I think the selling price was reasonable. I do have my doubts about being able to sell it for what I paid for it, though.

The question remains as to whether to sell it as is or keep it and send it to Pete Moreno.

I wouldn’t say that the seller figuratively slammed the door in my face. It was a cordial exchange, but one that had me questioning later whether the repair was minor or significant, and if it would devalue the guitar. But at the time, it was a joy to play and stunning to look at. It was only later that I started to wonder about the impact of the repair and when I started to encounter the minor but mounting issues.

**zcostilla** · 07-19-2020, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Eisele

Thanks for your reply and condolences, Jabberwocky! I am pretty much convinced that I will sell, and absolutely with full disclosure. And, it makes sense that I will have to discount the sales price based on the fretboard repair. I’m hesitant to mention the dealers name even in a PM because I have previously had dealings with this seller and found them to be honest, helpful, and forthcoming about the guitars they sell. So, I feel like this was a one off situation that shouldn’t be repeated. Not sure why I didn’t have a good experience this time, but it has made me more wary about buying used guitars. And, I want to clarify that it was not an individual seller on this forum nor was the guitar advertised on this forum.

If the dealer holds themselves as honest, I would go back to them and ask why they weren’t honest, or if they would buy it back at the price they sold it to you (or at least come close). Let them take most, if not all of the financial hit, since they are the business and have a reputation to uphold. They likely will be able to write that loss off for business purposes.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-19-2020, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by zcostilla

If the dealer holds themselves as honest, I would go back to them and ask why they weren’t honest, or if they would buy it back at the price they sold it to you (or at least come close). Let them take most, if not all of the financial hit, since they are the business and have a reputation to uphold. They likely will be able to write that loss off for business purposes.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I appreciate your perspective and will take it under consideration. I do, however, have some concern about the amount of time that has passed from the transaction date to the present. It has been more than a year and initially I was convinced that the repair was a minor concern, but later had doubts, especially when other issues cropped up.

I am starting to wonder if it might be a good idea to ask the forum members if they have any knowledge of a guitar that one of us may be considering for purchase or trade. It might be possible that the guitar under consideration may have been owned or worked on a member. Just an idea.

**GNAPPI** · 07-19-2020, 10:25 PM

Jeez, I'm sorry for the troubles you had. It's a bummer having something you own spiral down with issues so I can see your not wanting to keep it.

**Hep To The Jive** · 07-19-2020, 11:18 PM

After more than a year to ask for return? You guys serious?

I'd keep the guitar if its problems all solved and it plays great. No need to be all superstitious like it has inherited bad luck within it.

**zcostilla** · 07-20-2020, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

After more than a year to ask for return? You guys serious?

I'd keep the guitar if its problems all solved and it plays great. No need to be all superstitious like it has inherited bad luck within it.

I get that, and 9 times out of 10 I’d say it’s too long since purchase to try to press the issue. But a high-value instrument is not your run of the mill time, and it seems the dealer was either ignorant or misleading about the condition of the guitar. Any instrument of this nature would be carefully examined before putting it up for sale. You can go to Gruhn’s or Elderly and see them point out every issue in their high end used instruments.

**skiboyny** · 07-20-2020, 09:35 AM

Hey Bill,

FWIW I usually find that most the "problems" you listed with your guitar can be a normal part of the journey of guitar personalization. It can indeed be a frustrating experience but even with a new guitar, I find that it takes some time and effort to get any guitar I own, even if it were new, up to standards that I would accept. The 12th fret hump is also very common, and I agree that that should have been disclosed, but with that said, It was addressed and the solution, didn't seem to bother you much until the other problems began to mound up. It seems way too late to go back on a dealer at this point. It's just a guitar, there are no demons, it has the potential to play as well as any. If the sound inspires you to play, keep it. If not move it out and try again.

**Stringswinger** · 07-20-2020, 11:50 AM

I would sell the guitar and move on. The bitter taste of the non-disclosure will always be there and because of all the needed repairs, you will always worry about what is coming next (whether this is a rational worry is besides the point).

I bought one guitar from Heritage auctions. It had a material false representation (probably made by the consignor and passed on by Heritage whose disclaimers pretty much put the buyer at risk when not examining the guitar in person). I did not discover this until over a year after I had bought the guitar. I felt it was too late to recover money damages from Heritage. I then re-fretted the guitar with Stainless frets and discovered that I was not thrilled with the frets. I had trouble bonding with that guitar. I sold the guitar and have not looked back.

There are other guitars to be had that you will not have trouble bonding with.

**TedBPhx** · 07-20-2020, 02:17 PM

Sounds as if this guitar has been making the rounds between dealers and unsatisfied players for awhile. With your fixes and full disclosures I hope this three legged dog finally finds a loving home.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-20-2020, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by skiboyny

Hey Bill,

FWIW I usually find that most the "problems" you listed with your guitar can be a normal part of the journey of guitar personalization. It can indeed be a frustrating experience but even with a new guitar, I find that it takes some time and effort to get any guitar I own, even if it were new, up to standards that I would accept. The 12th fret hump is also very common, and I agree that that should have been disclosed, but with that said, It was addressed and the solution, didn't seem to bother you much until the other problems began to mound up. It seems way too late to go back on a dealer at this point. It's just a guitar, there are no demons, it has the potential to play as well as any. If the sound inspires you to play, keep it. If not move it out and try again.

Thanks for your thoughts on the guitar, skiboyny. It is true that I mostly moved on from the repair issue after the initial disappointment of finding out about it. But then the minor issues started cropping up. Each one on their own wasn’t a concern. Just the totality of them. As far as keeping it or moving it, it reminds of me of a house or boat you take possession of. It’s not until then that you start to uncover and deal with previously unknown defects. Some of us are willing to take on the projects and some just want to move on. I’m still on the fence about it.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-20-2020, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I would sell the guitar and move on. The bitter taste of the non-disclosure will always be there and because of all the needed repairs, you will always worry about what is coming next (whether this is a rational worry is besides the point).

I bought one guitar from Heritage auctions. It had a material false representation (probably made by the consignor and passed on by Heritage whose disclaimers pretty much put the buyer at risk when not examining the guitar in person). I did not discover this until over a year after I had bought the guitar. I felt it was too late to recover money damages from Heritage. I then re-fretted the guitar with Stainless frets and discovered that I was not thrilled with the frets. I had trouble bonding with that guitar. I sold the guitar and have not looked back.

There are other guitars to be had that you will not have trouble bonding with.

All good points, Stringswinger. And sorry to hear about your own experience with a guitar that wasn’t honestly described. It’s one thing to be made aware of a defect at the time of a purchase decision and the guitar is priced accordingly. It’s another to find out after the fact many months later having paid a price that doesn’t take the defect into account. In my situation, I really don’t know if the repair would have substantially impacted the pricing of the guitar. But it certainly leaves a sour taste in your mouth and you become more wary of purchasing used guitars.

**Bill Eisele** · 07-20-2020, 03:53 PM

In retrospect, it would have been good to have a comprehensive list of questions to present to the seller in order to assess the condition of the guitar and uncover any potential repairs. By getting documented responses to the questions via email, texting or messaging on Reverb, etc., there would at least be a path forward if false representation was made. Would there be any interest in that list being created and posted as sticky in the For Sale sub-forum? I’m not saying that the complete list of questions would need to be asked for each transaction, particularly for those conducted between known and trustworthy buyers and sellers.