Help needed finding the right Archtop

[sw1002]

Hello everyone,
I am searching the perfect Archtop for my needs.
For my style of music the Framus AZ 10 has the sound i am looking for, but only the older ones - around 1960/70 . problem is they are very hard to find and when unfortunately too expensive for me.
To my understanding, and please correct me if i am wrong, those are kind of acoustic Guitars , and the newer ones with often 2 Pickups are made for being amplified.

What do i have now?
A Höfner 477 E2 , beautiful. but acoustic too quiet, the space between the strings and the body (is there a term for this?) is too low, the Punch is missing.
A The Loar 300something : This is almost the way it schuld sound acoustic, but something is missing. Neck(V) too big.
A Hüttl Starlight : like the Loar, loud, but missing depth, neck too big, hard to play.

What schould it be?
Perfect would be a cheaper AZ 10
From what i have - it schould have all the things from the 477, but more space between strings and Body and a louder tone.

So i think it schould be a Guitar made around 1965, with Tross but not made fully for amplification?!

I hope you can follow me and i am sorry for my bad english and the lack of Archtop knowledge.
Thank you in Advance.
Kind Regards
Stefan

Edit 1 :
Preferably Florentine Cutaway and floating/no Pickup.

[pcjazz]

If you raise the action on the Hofner there will be more space between strings and body and the guitar will be louder.

[gitman]

Give us an idea about the size of your budget and we‘ll go from there.
What kind if music do you play , alone or with others ?

[sw1002]

@pcjazz
already tried that, but then the strings are too far away from the fret and the guitar is too hard to play.
I have played very much Archtops and always had the feeling of two different types , more like an acoustic guitar and others like an electric guitar, and unfortunately the 477 plays more like a E guitar.

[sw1002]

Give us an idea about the size of your budget and we‘ll go from there.
What kind if music do you play , alone or with others ?

1000 to 1500 €
preferably used and vintage

Traditional (Oberkrainer) Folk music - example :

[Hammertone]

"1000 to 1500 €, preferably used and vintage"
Being in Europe, within that price range, you can find a superb vintage carved-top guitar, made in West Germany or East Germany in the 1950s or early 1960s. The trick is to find one in decent condition, that plays well. Ebay.de is a great place to look, but you'd need to have the option of returning the guitar if it doesn't live up to the expectations created by the seller's description. I have purchased many carved-top, acoustic archtop guitars from individual as well as commercial sellers on ebay.de, with great results.

There are many models out there, but, realistically, within that price range, with a cutaway, your best bet will be something like:
-Hoyer Solist or Special (16 1/2" Solists are relatively easy to find and less expensive compared to 17 1/2" Specials). These two models almost always have carved top and back plates;
-Roger Junior, Standard, Luxus or Super (Supers are typically more expensive, but one never knows). They almost always have solid carved tops and backs.
-Framus AZ10 or similar. Framus did make a few carved-top archtops in the '50s, but there are a lot of really bad, cheap ones out there - they are very much a "try before you buy" brand. They almost all have pressed or laminated back plates;
-older Hofner higher-quality models, such as (@16") 457/462/463/464 or (@17+") 468/470 or Hofner made-for-Selmer (@16") President or (@17+") Committee. Generally speaking, only the very old ones have carved tops, and neck shapes very considerably. They always have laminated back plates. The good ones are VERY good.

These are pro-quality instruments with predictable performance characteristics. They typically have scale lengths of 625-630, similar to the typical Gibson 24 3/4" scale. Hofner typically used 640-650, @ 25 1/4".

There are also East German carved archtop guitars, but those are very much "try before you buy" instruments - some are fantastic, some have very strange neck profiles.

I'll post a few auctions for you, and am happy to comment on individual auctions. There are no real price guidelines for these guitars, just anecdotal observations. They are all significantly better values than anything else on the market. There are a few other members here as well who know about these guitars and can provide useful insights.

[Hammertone]

For instance:
Vintage Arnold Hoyer Esquire Jazzgitarre Schlaggitarre | eBay
The Esquire is one model level below the Solist, and not as nice, but can still be an excellent guitar. Older versions typically have laminated backs. I stopped bothering with them many years ago, and don't remember if the tops are carved, solid pressed or laminated.

Archtop Arnold Hoyer Solist Jazzgitarre restauriert Halbakustik m. Tonabnehmern | eBay
As per the description, this Hoyer Solist has been rebuilt, but looks like it's in excellent playing condition.
Refinished, non-original tuners and bridge. Could be great. These typically have carved spruce tops, carved maple backs and solid maple rims. They also typically have very comfortable necks.

Alte Hoyer e Gitarre von 1953 | eBay
Hoyer is a common name in Germany, like "Smith" in the USA. This is from another Hoyer, not from Arnold Hoyer. I don't have any experience with these guitars, but they generally look well-built - perhaps one of our European friends can comment?

[Hammertone]

More:
Neubauer Archtop Jazzgitarre Schlaggitarre | eBay
Neubauer made some beautiful archtops as well as some cheaper ones. This is one of the cheaper ones.

vintage "Fasan" Archtop Schlaggitarre, Franz Sandner, Jazz-Gitarre, 50er selten | eBay
Franz Sandner built under the Fasan name. Some were cheap laminated archtops, some had solid tops, some were all-carved. This is a middle of the line model. It appears to have a solid top, and appears to be in clean original condition.

Jazzgitarre Sandner Archtop Fasan Vintage Schlaggitarre mit Hofner Pickup | eBay
Here's a fancier Fasan with a carved top. Back is still laminated. The addition of a modern vintage-style Hofner pickup will not significantly affect the acoustic volume of this guitar. Quite a lovely-looking instrument. They can be very nice guitars.

[sw1002]

Hammertone, thank you so much for your help, this is amazing.

One thing, is there any option with a florentine cutaway? I just love the look of those...

My favorites so far :
This Neubauer
Neubauer Archtop Jazzgitarre, Top Klasse in Kreis Pinneberg - Quickborn | Musikinstrumente und Zubehor gebraucht kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen

or one of the Hoyers.
What would you prefer?

Thank you, KR
Stefan

[Hammertone]

Most Florentine-cutaway archtop guitars made in Germany were made in the 1960s and into the 1970s, after Gibson introduced them to their S-400CES, L-5CES, and Byrdland models. Various makers at the time copied the look, including Hofner, Hoyer, Hopf, Klira and others. There are a couple that are quite nice, if you can find them.

As far as preference goes, I'd have to play the guitars.

Gustav Glassl, who ghost-built for several makers, mostly Hopf, made some nice florentine cutaway carved-top acoustic archtops. I've had a couple that were excellent carved-top acoustic archtop guitars. See pix below.

Klira made the Tone King - I've played a couple that were very nice. Very few of these around. Here's one in performance:

Another one, hardly skilled, but you can get the idea:

Glassl:

[sw1002]

Thank you again.
Already searched for the ToneKing but unfortunately i could not find one..

I just fell in Love with those Glassls .. That is what i was looking for ( in terms of optic)

If you know one to buy please let me know
Thank you.
KR
Stefan