string rattles behind fretted note help?

[Meggy]

I have one guitar in particular where this is an issue, although it also occurs to a lesser extent on my other axes. What happens is, if I play certain intervals (as part of a chord for example) then because one of the played notes is the same as the length of string between the nut and finger on another string (always the low E string pretty much), this length of string vibrates in sympathy, giving string rattles against the frets. I might not have explained this well, but I hope you're with me. For example, if I play the following two notes, it happens:
[CHORD]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|

[/CHORD]
The length of string between the nut and my second finger on the low E will vibrate, because it is roughly the same pitch as the A fretted by my first finger on the D string. Of course this is not picked up by the pickup, but I still find it annoying. I like the action/setup of my guitar otherwise (just a touch of neck relief/bowing only) but should I alter the setup in any way to avoid this? Does anyone else have the same thing? Help!

[Bill C]

I have this exact same "back buzz" issue if I play both Bb on the D string and Db on the low E. I know it's back buzz because if I damp the E on the nut side the buzz disappears.

As the playability on my guitar is otherwise great I decided to live with it for now rather than fix this and compromise other aspects of the setup but I'd be interested to know what others have done about this.

[Meggy]

I have this exact same "back buzz" issue if I play both Bb on the D string and Db on the low E. I know it's back buzz because if I damp the E on the nut side the buzz disappears.

As the playability on my guitar is otherwise great I decided to live with it for now rather than fix this and compromise other aspects of the setup but I'd be interested to know what others have done about this.

At least I'm in good company, and not the only one, cheers Bill! I can often damp the string with my thumb, although I don't like having to modify my technique, or I could use some sort of string damping device near the nut I suppose, but then the open strings are gone. Like you, I can "live with it" fairly well, but being a perfectionist, I don't like to! Cheers for replying though.

[randyc]

Meggy, might be time for a new nut, sounds like this one might be adjusted a bit too low for the low E. But before doing so, slip a scrap of paper, folded, under the low E string at the nut. This will raise the string about .002-.003 inches (which is actually quite a bit at the nut). If the buzz goes away, you've found the problem. If not there may be insufficient neck relief. If that's so, you could have a sticky situation, since the problem may occur only on the low side of the neck (neck may have a slight twist).

Good luck,
randyc

[Meggy]

Meggy, might be time for a new nut, sounds like this one might be adjusted a bit too low for the low E. But before doing so, slip a scrap of paper, folded, under the low E string at the nut. This will raise the string about .002-.003 inches (which is actually quite a bit at the nut). If the buzz goes away, you've found the problem. If not there may be insufficient neck relief. If that's so, you could have a sticky situation, since the problem may occur only on the low side of the neck (neck may have a slight twist).

Good luck,
randyc

Thank you randy, I will try that and see what occurs! Although I tend to think (without any proof I admit) that the low E is susceptible more because of it's lower pitch and/or larger mass, or something like that - i.e. a physics type thing! Also it would be annoying to have to alter the nut just for this problem, since there is no undue buzzing from the open strings, it's just the behind the fretted note thing. But then, life is like that sometimes I guess...

[randyc]

Yes, I understand. I have one old accoustic guitar that still has a folded slip of paper under one string slot in the bridge because I couldn't see making a new bridge for that one faulty slot Hope you find your problem.

[Meggy]

Yes, I understand. I have one old accoustic guitar that still has a folded slip of paper under one string slot in the bridge because I couldn't see making a new bridge for that one faulty slot Hope you find your problem.

Of course it very well could be the nut I have to admit! Us guitarists are perhaps sometimes reluctant to accept that there is a problem which will require a luthier/money to fix! I haven't yet had chance to try out the paper shim, but don't be surprised if that turns out to be the issue... If it does, then I will at least have learnt something about guitar set-ups though, so it's not all bad. Cheers again for you help Randy!

[cosmic gumbo]

My luthier fills a low nut slot with an epoxy type compound and refiles the slot to the proper depth. It takes him about 5 minutes. He says it's a pretty standard procedure.

[SamBooka]

My luthier fills a low nut slot with an epoxy type compound and refiles the slot to the proper depth. It takes him about 5 minutes. He says it's a pretty standard procedure.

Epoxy or crazy glue.. I have done both but only in a pinch ( a kid comes in with a cheap guitar and has 10$ in his pocket.. if that is all that is wrong I will fill the slot and he leaves with 10$ in his pocket)

A doctor comes in with his D-45 and well..

[Meggy]

I've still not got round to trying the paper shim yet - been too busy practising on my other guitars! Not sure if the crazy/epoxy would work as it is one of those graphite impregnated nuts designed to reduce friction for tremolo use. Although I don't use the tremolo anyway, but... I'll what happens with the paper first though, and cheers for the idea!

[TommyD]

I cut a piece of chamois about 5/8" wide and a little longer than the width of the fretboard at the nut. Then I folded it in half to make it thicker and worked it under the strings just at the nut (actually slid it under the strings farther up and worked it back to the nut). Totally eliminates that resonant buzz. Also makes my guitar sound like Tal Farlow's, but that's another story! (ES175)
I got the idea from watching Herb Ellis use that gadget he has mounted on the headstock to do the same thing.
T.

[Meggy]

I cut a piece of chamois about 5/8" wide and a little longer than the width of the fretboard at the nut. Then I folded it in half to make it thicker and worked it under the strings just at the nut (actually slid it under the strings farther up and worked it back to the nut). Totally eliminates that resonant buzz. Also makes my guitar sound like Tal Farlow's, but that's another story! (ES175)
I got the idea from watching Herb Ellis use that gadget he has mounted on the headstock to do the same thing.
T.

That is quite a neat idea, I would not of thought of the chamois myself so cheers for that. Of course you then lose your open strings, but that can also make "missed string" chord voicings easier to play. I may try it out just to see how I find it, after all, I can always leave my other guitars in "normal" mode anyway.

[TommyD]

That is quite a neat idea, I would not of thought of the chamois myself so cheers for that. Of course you then lose your open strings, but that can also make "missed string" chord voicings easier to play. I may try it out just to see how I find it, after all, I can always leave my other guitars in "normal" mode anyway.

No, you don't lose your open strings. They actually sound fatter and less "plinky". (You're not going to stop that long string from resonating with a little piece of chamois under the strings next to the nut.)
I took it off yesterday to see what I was missing, and put it right back on again! MUCH better guitar with it on.
T/

[Meggy]

No, you don't lose your open strings. They actually sound fatter and less "plinky". (You're not going to stop that long string from resonating with a little piece of chamois under the strings next to the nut.)
I took it off yesterday to see what I was missing, and put it right back on again! MUCH better guitar with it on.
T/

In that case, even better! I'm definitely trying this ASAP now - as soon as I can find a bit of chamois! Cheers again for the idea.

[TommyD]

In that case, even better! I'm definitely trying this ASAP now - as soon as I can find a bit of chamois! Cheers again for the idea.

It makes me realize just how poorly hollow-body guitars are designed - even the best ones; L-5s, LS 400s, D'Aquistos, etc. Amplified hollow-bodies came about semi-accidentally, and evolved. Early F-hole guitars were fitted with body-top PUPS (like the DeArmand) and it all went on from there.
In fact, semi-hollow guitars and solid-body guitars (ES 335, Telecasters - re; Ed Bickert) are MUCH better suited for amplification. Too bad that they don't sound as rich and mellow as hollow-body gee-tars.
Now we're stuck with it.
T/

[Meggy]

It makes me realize just how poorly hollow-body guitars are designed - even the best ones; L-5s, LS 400s, D'Aquistos, etc. Amplified hollow-bodies came about semi-accidentally, and evolved. Early F-hole guitars were fitted with body-top PUPS (like the DeArmand) and it all went on from there.
In fact, semi-hollow guitars and solid-body guitars (ES 335, Telecasters - re; Ed Bickert) are MUCH better suited for amplification. Too bad that they don't sound as rich and mellow as hollow-body gee-tars.
Now we're stuck with it.
T/

In a way you are quite right - the archtop design is indeed a total compromise between the needs of amplification, and acoustic tone. It's neither very good for playing loud (feedback) and does not make a pure acoustic tone either (when amplified). It just so happens that we like the resulting sound in it's own right, for playing jazz! Although when you have a compromise like this, it can make for an area of interesting design, which I think IS the case for archtops.

Having said that, my buzzy guitar is a solid body in this case. One thing I have found lately is that by putting a little more bow into the neck, the behind the fret buzzing goes away. But I like my guitars with only a very small amount of bow - they seem to play better to me. So no real solution there! The chamois still seems a neat idea to me! I'll let you know how it goes, cheers!

[randyc]

LOL, Meggy I can't believe that, after almost three weeks, you haven't tried something. (I'm guessing that you don't play this particular guitar frequently?)

The chamois idea IS a good one but it's not clear that it would be more effective than any slightly damping type of material, perhaps TommyD can comment regarding other materials that he has tried?

It's such an ODD choice of material that it suggests that there's a reason that I haven't considered.

cheers,
randyc

[Meggy]

LOL, Meggy I can't believe that, after almost three weeks, you haven't tried something. (I'm guessing that you don't play this particular guitar frequently?)

The chamois idea IS a good one but it's not clear that it would be more effective than any slightly damping type of material, perhaps TommyD can comment regarding other materials that he has tried?

It's such an ODD choice of material that it suggests that there's a reason that I haven't considered.

cheers,
randyc

Yes, well, I've been busy or something... I guess you have to laugh (or cry maybe), it perhaps does not say anything good about my time management does it? - and this is something I am interested in! Can you imagine how bad it could be for something I'm not? Oh well!

As you say, other materials might work also - some experiment would be required. I'm sure I can lay my hands on a chamois easily though, so that will be the first test for me. Honest! I'm going to do it this evening, no really I mean it...

[TommyD]

LOL, Meggy I can't believe that, after almost three weeks, you haven't tried something. (I'm guessing that you don't play this particular guitar frequently?)

The chamois idea IS a good one but it's not clear that it would be more effective than any slightly damping type of material, perhaps TommyD can comment regarding other materials that he has tried?

It's such an ODD choice of material that it suggests that there's a reason that I haven't considered.

cheers,
randyc

Heck, everybody's got a piece of chamois around the garage or basement someplace! I actually didn't try anything else before the chamois. I was playing along trying not to get disgusted over all the overtones and spotted a chamois clarinet swab. I put the guitar in the stand and grabbed a scissors. End of story.
You could also use a piece of thick, firm, felt there as well - think about piano felts for that - pianos have all kinds of felt pads and dampers etc. If you know a piano technician.....
The best solution is probably Herb Ellis's gadget with the felt strip on it that he swung down over the strings behind the first fret when he soloed. The hinge used to squeek when he lowered or raised it!(A drop of oil, Herb?) He got the idea (and the gadget's source) from another player, but I have no idea where you might find one now (unless you dig up Herb!), or even what it's called - maybe the "Herb Ellis ES 175 damper to get rid of Gibson's persistent failure to understand what makes a plywood guitar so prone to overtones". Altho I have to admit Gibson got it exactly right with the Tal Farlow model, but maybe that was Tal's input! It is one great plywood guitar. Tal told me that he wanted a guitar that he could step on and it wouldn't be harmed - "road worthy" I think he mentioned. (Miss you and love you, Tal!) If you want to hear a really nice Tal, try this:
YouTube - Kanaal van dutchbopper
So anyway, that's my story of why I opted for the chamois. When all else fails, go to your local automotive supply store and buy a chamois for four bucks.
Best,
TommyD/

[Big Ron]

Here is the entire skinny on the original gizmo.

Scotty Moore - String Dampers

Ron Vermillion

[TommyD]

Here is the entire skinny on the original gizmo.

Scotty Moore - String Dampers

Ron Vermillion

How the h#ll did you find that link so fast? I love the idea of a sponge or felt under the strings between the bridge and tailpiece. Next stop? Buying some felt or a large natural sponge (they don't get hard when dry). Also, I wonder how true is the statement about metal tailpieces vs. wooden ones? That's another avenue of exploration.
Tommy/

[Big Ron]

And here is where you can find one and actually buy it right now. The choice is now - a free scrap of felt or a $60 contraption that looks like a toy GI Joe helicopter has landed on your prized guitar. Be sure when using one of these that you also clamp a tuner on the headstock of the guitar, as I do, so that you will now look a little more like a guy wielding a diesel powered weed eater.
LOL - makes the scrap of felt look pretty good right now.

http://www.allparts.com/ProductDetai...3&Show=ExtInfo

Or for only $89 you can get this one: http://www.angelo.com/html/the_mab_string_dampener.html

Is it me, or are these things getting uglier and uglier as they go up in price. Where are the little pretty machined ones.

Ta! Da! Use a hair scruntchie http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/msmikee/C0531b.jpg=450 You just wrap it around the neck up high so it doesn't block any frets.

This may be the best thing yet! A Buzznut for about $12.00 Check it out! http://www.buznut.com/



Ron

[randyc]

... Also, I wonder how true is the statement about metal tailpieces vs. wooden ones? That's another avenue of exploration...Tommy/

It's certainly true, although the effect varies from guitar to guitar. My L-4CES produces a distinct "ping" from the tailpiece, although it's not audible when amplified. My L-5CES (identical tailpiece except that it doesn't have the wood insert) doesn't produce that sound at all! Maybe the wooden inlay on the L-4 tailpiece lowers its resonant frequency making it more susceptible to string stimuli ... FWIW, stuffing a cloth under the strings behind the bridge suppresses the "ping", although it doesn't bother me enough to have done it more than once.

[Big Ron]

Kinda wondering if the ping is from a string not being seated completely and then finally pulling over a rough spot under tension. Same thing happens when a nut is rough or dry or not the correct slot dimenstion for the string (too narrow). The string will bind up in the nut and then finally turn loose and slip causing a ping.

Ron

[randyc]

no, it's not a one-time event, it's recurrent and has been making that "ping" for many years and through many sets of strings (it's a subtle sound and not entirely unpleasant - almost like an echo).