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Played two gigs this weekend with the Little Jazz.
Octet, 4 horns and rhythm section. Huge room, couple of hundred people. The crowd noise was loud enough that it was hard to talk to the musician sitting next to me. I had the LJ at about 2 o'clock on the volume, 12 on the mids, 11 on treble, and bass turned all the way down. Amp tilted back a little. Pedal board adding more gain, in front of the amp. I could hear it fine. Solos were audible in the audience. Trombonist, on the other side of the stage, couldn't hear it.
From one point of view, it wasn't enough amp. But, OTOH, the band was way too loud for the room. I heard later, from the audience, that they had to scream to have a conversation, bearing in mind that some of that was the crowd, not the band.
Next day. 19pc big band. 15 horns. Much smaller room. Probably hold an audience of 60 or so, although it wasn't nearly that full.
Leader asked me to turn down. I asked, and he said the sound was clear, he just wanted less volume from the rhythm section. Also, my amp was maybe 10 feet behind him on the bandstand, almost pointed at his head. I ended up with the LJ volume around noon or a little lower and the pedal board not adding gain.
Overall, I think the LJ volume was adequate in both situations, although the first one is more debatable. There might be an argument for an amp with a bigger speaker and more power to get a "bigger" sound (something to do with attack, clarity or ???), but it worked.
Caveat: I confess to being confused by some of the discussion of "clean headroom". How loud must the stage volume be to need something with 100 watts in a big cabinet? I don't want my own amp to be blasting that loud anywhere near me.
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03-09-2020 05:23 PM
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Closed back ported cabinets are rather directional. Not much of the sound goes to the side. In the first situation, a small extension cabinet, with it and the amp facing in somewhat different directions, might disperse the sound enough. Or not, can't hear it from here.
But IME if the Little Jazz isn't loud enough, I don't want to be there.
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Extra clean power is for instantaneous peaks. Live "natural instrument music" (clean) can require and consume +20dB of headroom - a factor of ten - so if your average is 4 watts you may have +20dB peaks needing 40 watts.
Lots of guitar speakers have a sensitivity rating close to 100dB sound pressure level a meter away at 1 watt average power... then 4 watts average would be 106dB, which is very loud at home, about right for stage jazz without horns or loud drummer. Not all of that sound gets out into the room and it diminishes with distance. The level you hear and determine as what you need is an average level; the actual peak level you need may be ten times that in watts power to keep your tone sounding clean and clear, or not quite that much if you like your tone a little glassy, or a little warm.
Low frequencies consume almost all of the watts available; turning the bass knob down helps a lot. Using a compressor/limiter can reduce the headroom and so the peak power requirement.
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I find my LJ adequate for most gigs but the 8'' speaker can only do so much. Sometimes you need a bit more speaker area, not necessarily volume per say, but breadth of sound for want of a better term. I find the quality of tone is compromised when pushing the amp harder.
One of my other amps is a 2x10'' combo - I find that configuration ideal for even the biggest and noisiest situations. When I know I'm playing outdoors or in a noisy venue , I reach for the 2x10'' amp, but otherwise the LJ generally does the trick.
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I agree. If the Little Jazz isn't loud enough, with the extra boost from the ME80, there ought to be a PA. I understand the point about peak power, but, as far as I can tell, I'm not dealing with the sound of the LJ crapping out somehow when I have it turned up and hit the guitar hard. That said, I also think that there are situations in which a bigger amp might sound better, without necessarily sounding louder, maybe for spatial spread or maybe something about the transients that I can't quite identify.
I haven't had the thought that the LJ sounds louder with the bass turned down. Not sure about that.
Rather, I find that the guitar sounds boomy, on chords, with the bass turned up. Maybe that's because the amp doesn't have enough power?
In any case, in a horn band with a piano, I'd be happy with a Strat single coil sound for comping. I like it sounding, well, crisp, for want of a better descriptor, in that register. For soloing, I'll take the humbucker in my Comins GCS-1 and I usually add an octave down, not too loud, with the harmonizer in the ME80. With that approach, I can get the solo tone I want and comping isn't bad (now and then I switch the Comins to single coil operation, but then I'm at risk for forgetting I did it and being vaguely dissatisfied with my tone until I figure it out).
I've tried it with a Lil 59 HB in the neck position of a Strat for soloing and middle position single coil for comping, but I couldn't get the solo tone I wanted.
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Very interesting thread. My thanks to all the contributors.
I don't gig but I have an LJ and am always trying to find the tone I hear "in my head". Turning the bass virtually to "0" has helped tremendously.
I'll be continuing to follow this thread with interest.
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I won't use a speaker that small, unless it's a small group in a small room. That's why I don't understand the popularity of the LJ. It may be loud enough, but the sound isn't big enough for a large group or large room. It just doesn't disperse enough. I've found that a 10" with an open back cab is as small as you can go for all purpose gig coverage in my experience. Rehearsal....use whatever you want, I guess.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 03-09-2020 at 11:20 PM.
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Turning down the bass means relatively more power (headroom) is available to the mids and highs - if you don't need the low end for tone, this is a good idea.
The size of a speaker mechanically acoustically determines the frequency around which it "beams" - the wide dispersion angle of the projected sound becomes narrowed more to a focused projection straight out from the center axis of the cone, occurring about the frequency for which the wave length coincides with the diameter of the cone.
With speed of sound 1125ft/s you can approximate beaming freq:
speed of sound divided by cone diameter (which is smaller than speaker size)
nominal speaker size, actual cone diameter (about 85%), center of beaming frequency
6", .425ft, 2647Hz
8", .561ft, 2009Hz
10", .701ft, 1605Hz
12", .850ft, 1324Hz
15", 1.063ft, 1058Hz
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I did a gig with a trio once in a horrible sounding art gallery with a Henriksen 110ER. We weren't super loud, but the drummer complained he couldn't hear me at all -- even though he was sitting right next to me! I think an open back cab would have been more useful for him to hear me -- but no matter what, that room was going to sound horrible.
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I've posted before about how little I liked the Lunchbox amp. However, I did find it useful on a regular gig where the drummer complained he couldn't hear me -- and I didn't want to hear myself any louder. I ran a line to the LB amp and told the drummer to adjust the volume to the level he wanted. Complaints stopped. I couldn't hear the LB amp, so it didn't bother me.
Originally Posted by Longways to Go
BTW, the Little Jazz has an opening in the back -- it's ported, I think. Where does this fit in when people are talking about open vs closed back cabinets?
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This seems like a decent explanation:BTW, the Little Jazz has an opening in the back -- it's ported, I think. Where does this fit in when people are talking about open vs closed back cabinets?
Dave’s Corner: Don’t Ignore The Speaker Cab | Reverb News
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I attached a recording.
Four horns and rhythm section. Huge room, lotta marble, tile and glass, live. Loud crowd. The crowd was loud enough that I had to shout to talk to the pianist, who was 3 feet from me, during the breaks. The band was too loud for some in the audience - we heard later.
Yamaha Pocketrak between the piano and bassist in the backline. Guitar amp is the Little Jazz, off to one side and angled probably 90 degrees away from the recorder. Volume about 2 o'clock. Bass all the way off. Mids at noon. Treble at 11. Reverb at 9. On the floor, tilted back maybe 1-2 inches (to reduce the bass further). I added some gain with the ME80 pedal board - more with the solos. I don't know that the LJ could have been much louder. Guitar is the Comins GCS-1.
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IME the Little Jazz accepts hotter input with grace, although it's probably possible to have more boost than I've ever used. It sounds fine to me in that recording. I don't think I would want to be directly in front of the speaker without high quality earmuffs.
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' Originally Posted by sgosnell
I always wear earplugs with that band. And, I've also noticed that I can hit the LJ with a pretty hot signal and it sounds fine. I don't really want to play louder than the LJ can handle. I do think, though, that a more powerful amp can give a better, not just louder, tone. But, the LJ does fine and I love the weight.
As far as dispersion goes ... this was a very live room. Just about every surface was hard. But, it was also big and had high ceilings. The sort of echoey sound of the recording suggests there was plenty of reflected sound. The recorder, which was off to the right of the LJ, probably 12 feet away at a 90 degree angle, seemed to hear the LJ just fine, at least for the soloing. For the comping, I recall it sounding louder where I was sitting than the recording suggests. It was to my left, and not pointing at me. You certainly don't have to be sitting in front of it to hear it.
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A single 8" speaker cannot give the best sound from an amp, that's not really debatable, IMO. But the best possible sound is not always the most important factor. IMO, the Little Jazz is good enough, and the size and weight trump the small speaker. It's loud enough, and sounds good enough in a band situation. There are better amps for recording, but I think it's hard to find one better for gigging. I do like mini heads and small cabinets, or 2x10 cabinets, but having everything in one box is very convenient. I don't take anything else out of the house.
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yes that’s very helpful thanks Originally Posted by pauln
Paul ....
so so in a closed cabinet
or bass ported cab
the smaller the speaker ,
the better the dispersion !
the barefaced cabs look very
interesting with their AVD port
Barefaced Upsetter 110
– Barefaced Audio
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Even if I have "my own cow in the ditch" (Finnish saying), let me share my experience. Without floor monitors directed towards the band, the more directional your speaker, the less your bandmates hear of it. The larger the speaker and the more baffle around it, the more directional it gets. Hence, an open-back 10" "fills the room" better than a closed/ported 15". In this respect, the Little Jazz does a fine job. However, placing a second speaker cab upright somewhere in the middle of or even behind the band radically improves your audibility among bandmates. If you have a comping role in a largish/big band, with no solos, the upright speaker is all that's needed. I first tried this with an early TOOB prototype ca. 2014, in a mini big band with four horns. The front line liked the experience. The TOOB 12J and 12B (bass/jazz guitar) plus all telescopic models now come with removable legs for upright playing. Double bassists predominantly use their TOOBs in the upright postion. I invite PCjazz to comment.
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By "upright", do you mean the speaker is pointing towards the ceiling? Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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I'm pretty sure that's what he means. Johnny Smith used that configuration. I've used it with both my RE 10" cabinet and my little jazz. It works, and sounds good. I have a small platform with casters, sold as a furniture moving dolly, which keeps the amp a few inches off the floor, enough to allow the power cable to clear the floor, and to allow the bass from the rear ports to get out.
18 In. x 12 In. 1000 lb. Capacity Hardwood Dolly
Bigger models are available, but this one is more than big enough for the Little Jazz. I've also used a two-wheel luggage cart laid on its back, with the amp or cabinet bungied to it. Just roll it in, lay it down, and voila, you have your own "fountain of sound".
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Right. The Fountain of Sound. Originally Posted by sgosnell
The LJ is sensitive to what is behind it. I try to keep it a few feet away from a wall. I'll have to try it pointing upward with something underneath it -- with different heights.
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Yeah, experiment and see what works best for you. I generally like the amp a foot or so away from a wall when in normal position, but a few inches is enough for me when firing up. YMMV.
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Yes indeed! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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When the band is fighting against the volume of the crowd, you can't win. Better for the band to actually turn down instead of trying to get louder. The crowd volume may follow and everyone will be a lot happier.
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True, but if you're not leading the band, there isn't much you can do about it.
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One of the horn players, who leads a different big band, walked out into the crowd to check the sound. I couldn't hear his comments (ironic, but not a joke) so I don't know what he thought. Nobody suggested playing more quietly. Originally Posted by sgosnell
My wife was in the room and said it was way too loud. She and the bandleader's wife had to scream to have a conversation. This wasn't a concert; rather, it was background music for an event.
And, this was my octet. My wife said that the 19pc band, playing in a smaller room is never too loud.
The players listened to the recording the pianist made and all liked it.
So, the result was that nobody came away with any incentive to even discuss playing more quietly if we play there again.
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