How do you feel about modelers?

[jorgemg1984]

I've really only fooled around with one fender amp. I'm not sure how the vox and marshall amps compare. When I first got the helix i struggled to get semi-distorted tones but now I love a jazz tone with a little edge. Sounds very natural to me.

Ah, I'm only interested in the Fender anyway

[jzucker]

Ah, I'm only interested in the Fender anyway

sco sounded great with a vox amp. Unfortunately, the rat pedal is not very impressive so far in the helix.

[jorgemg1984]

sco sounded great with a vox amp. Unfortunately, the rat pedal is not very impressive so far in the helix.

He did, it's just not a sound I'm looking for!

[Spook410]

The cost of a Strymon Iridium ($400), Strymon Flint ($350), Grace Alix ($765), pedal power supply ($100), and board/cabling ($100) comes to $1715. Each element is quite a bit better than what you can find in a combo amp. Or you can get one of the current multi-FX units that are supposed to be quite good for around $1000. The FRFR speaker is anywhere from $250 to $2000.

A small combo, say something in the Quilter Aviator range, is $700 - $1000. Would work fine.

Bud 6 is like $1300? That's a surprise. And not sure I get using it with a modeler. All that signal processing just to get a fairly narrow frequency slice. Tiny speaker. Tiny box. You could go with the 10 but for $1600 you can get a pretty good FRFR.

[jim777]

I have a Fractal AX8, and I basically use it (when I use it) for a single sound (Eric Johnson Clean). I have basically stopped using it because the learning curve is so high and the number of choices (which of the 400+ cabinets do you want to emulate today?) don't make it any easier. I used a Digitech RP-1 for about 25 years and that was perfect for me. I think as a pro musician a Fractal would be a great choice, as you could put your non-gigging hours to use getting your sounds setup. But with a full time job that is not music related I don't want to come home and spend hours coming up with the perfect "clean sound". As Jack noted a lot of the presets and free downloadable sounds available are all metal sounds, and frankly those don't appeal to me.
For me, I (originally) wanted something that did everything, and I didn't realize just how much everything really is until I had to try and get a handle on it! At this point I think I'll probably switch to something simpler, like a Boss ME-80.

So, the AX8 is gone. I have a Boss 7 band EQ, a Boss Chorus, an MXR EVH distortion, an MXR Badass Modified distortion, a Fuchs overdrive, a Boss compressor and Boss Chorus, a Kelley Caverns (digital delay and reverb) and a tuner on a Pedaltrain 2, which comes with a bag. I am much happier with the individual pedals, and don't miss the headache of setting up a monster 'do it all' rig that would change everything with one touch. 30 years ago I would have LOVED the AX8, but no more.

[pdfiddler]

Yeah, the 2 lagged female type

[Alter]

The one thing I really disliked in the helix stomp was the looper setup. The double click was way too fast, with no way to change it, so the looper (a necessity for my use of multi effects) was useless to me. Never seen that with any other looper, it made me sell the HX stomp, and go back to Boss.

Sound wise, I loved the reverbs and modulation stuff, Line 6 always gets that right. Using external IRs was great also. But overall, digital doesn't do it for me, it's still a huge compromise compared to the real thing (of course half of that dislike is using studio monitors instead of guitar speakers).

[jorgemg1984]

The one thing I really disliked in the helix stomp was the looper setup. The double click was way too fast, with no way to change it, so the looper (a necessity for my use of multi effects) was useless to me. Never seen that with any other looper, it made me sell the HX stomp, and go back to Boss.

Sound wise, I loved the reverbs and modulation stuff, Line 6 always gets that right. Using external IRs was great also. But overall, digital doesn't do it for me, it's still a huge compromise compared to the real thing (of course half of that dislike is using studio monitors instead of guitar speakers).

A modeler that is famous for its looper abilities is the Headrush - they now have the small and affordable MX5. No idea how good is the modelling / fx.

[Spook410]

.. But overall, digital doesn't do it for me, it's still a huge compromise compared to the real thing (of course half of that dislike is using studio monitors instead of guitar speakers).

It is a compromise. You have to wonder how many guitarists rush in expecting their new rig to sound just like their favorite Fender amp just to discover that's not quite how things work. Given the evolution of sound, I wonder if in the future our ears will be attuned to digital amp sims that sound good.. just not exactly the same as their forebears.

As for studio monitors, an alternative might be a high quality acoustic amp. I like the sound of Schertler gear with my set up. Seems smoother and more guitar centric than monitors somehow.

[Litterick]

It is a compromise. You have to wonder how many guitarists rush in expecting their new rig to sound just like their favorite Fender amp just to discover that's not quite how things work. Given the evolution of sound, I wonder if in the future our ears will be attuned to digital amp sims that sound good.. just not exactly the same as their forebears.

That is not evolution. A future where the standard of amplification is an imperfect copy of a real amplifier is decadence.

[StringNavigator]

I was in a 4-5 piece pop-rock band. The rhythm guitarist had a huge pedalboard built into a rectangular guitar case. He fiddled with the knobs all the time. I don't recall him ever playing. When I bought my Fender DeVille, I passed up on an a Fender amp with modeler circuitry. It wasn't convincing to my ear. Then I considered the cost of repairing it one day... It's enough for me to practice technique, read music and learn the fingerboard in a strategic way. I've no time to fiddle with pots.

[jzucker]

It is a compromise. You have to wonder how many guitarists rush in expecting their new rig to sound just like their favorite Fender amp just to discover that's not quite how things work. Given the evolution of sound, I wonder if in the future our ears will be attuned to digital amp sims that sound good.. just not exactly the same as their forebears.

As for studio monitors, an alternative might be a high quality acoustic amp. I like the sound of Schertler gear with my set up. Seems smoother and more guitar centric than monitors somehow.

dunno, i think metheny, louke, rosenwinkel, christiansen are all doing fine...

[Spook410]

dunno, i think metheny, louke, rosenwinkel, christiansen are all doing fine...

As am I with my Strymon Iridium rig. Thing is.. it doesn't sound just like a Fender DeLuxe. It sounds good.. but the model/IR approach has limitations.

[jzucker]

As am I with my Strymon Iridium rig. Thing is.. it doesn't sound just like a Fender DeLuxe. It sounds good.. but the model/IR approach has limitations.

And the 2022 doesn't sound like the 80s deluxe which doesn't sound like the 70s which doesn't sound like the 60s which doesn't sound like the 50s...

The audience and bandmates will never notice. The only thing important is whether the sound cuts through and inspires you. Doesn't really matter if it nails a particular day's build sometime in the early '50s.

To me at least. YMMV

[mheton]

• I own a Kemper Modeler, and it's great for recording, but live I prefer my Suhr Hombre tube amp

[jorgemg1984]

As am I with my Strymon Iridium rig. Thing is.. it doesn't sound just like a Fender DeLuxe. It sounds good.. but the model/IR approach has limitations.

One thing people miss with modelers is they're not made to sound like an amp but like an amp miced. It's a big difference.

Personally, I never cared if they sound exactly like the amp they're modelling, more if they can sound good. And they can.

I also think a lot of the criticism of modelers comes from

1) they have a learning curve, they're not "plug and play" like an amp, so people dismiss them too quickly

2) most gear reviews these days is dominated by bedroom players - in you room by yourself, an actual amp might as well sound better than a modeler but in a gig with a band, no one notices the difference, and modelers bring plenty of advantages. It's the same with pedals, people go crazy with the latest overdrive because they try it in their room, and in a youtube clip it does seem like a new thing, but all those big differences usually vanish with a band.

3) it's not easy to find the right FRFR cab, most of them are bulky and don't sound good. I agree with you that a good acoustic amp tends do a much better job than a typical FRFR cab.

And, of course, they're not mutually exclusive. You can have amps and modelers, and use each accordingly.

[John A.]

One thing people miss with modelers is they're not made to sound like an amp but like an amp miced. It's a big difference.

Not necessarily, it depends on how the modeling is done. If it’s done via impulse response via a microphone, then you’re getting a model of a mic’ed amp. But if it’s done via circuit modeling, you’re getting a model of the behavior of the amp circuit. Some modelers do one, some do the other, some do both.

QUOTE=jorgemg1984;1242850] Personally, I never cared if they sound exactly like the amp they're modelling, more if they can sound good. And they can.
[/quote]
Ditto

[jorgemg1984]

Not necessarily, it depends on how the modeling is done. If it’s done via impulse response via a microphone, then you’re getting a model of a mic’ed amp. But if it’s done via circuit modeling, you’re getting a model of the behavior of the amp circuit. Some modelers do one, some do the other, some do both.

QUOTE=jorgemg1984;1242850] Personally, I never cared if they sound exactly like the amp they're modelling, more if they can sound good. And they can.

Ditto[/QUOTE]

You're right. I meant that trough what I believe to be the most common use of modelers (trough a PA or FRFR cab, not a guitar cab) modelers use impulse responses, and they're modelling a miced amp not an amp.

But of course, most of them allow you to use just the amp emulation and you can choose a guitar cab to go with it.

Thanks for the clarification!

[Spook410]

The audience and bandmates will never notice.,

I've been using the Strymon Iridium for several years. Those with some experience with these know it's not going to be re-creating the nuance of a given amp/speaker. However, the device can make a significant contribution to a great sound. Thing is.. it takes some effort to get there in open air and I believe some find this surprising.

As for using a Bud amp I wouldn't apply one of these as my EQ, reverb, and FRFR. But I also run acoustic instruments so I need something with more fidelity.

Finally, bandmates and audience would be quite happy with a number of reasonably priced combo amps. As well they should. If I just played jazz guitar I would likely get a Fender Twin Tonemaster and just enjoy the simplicity.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have only tried "modeling light". That is, the Boss ME-90. It has preamp modeling based on one of their more expensive units. There are some additional preamps which can be sent from the app to a position of the preamp selector switch. It has 4 slots for IRs, three of which are user-provided. There is a mic/line switch. There is some additional cabinet modeling, which is engaged, or not, depending on other switch settings. Three band EQ attached to the model plus a separate 3 band EQ module.

I got it sounding good at home, but on several gigs I didn't like what I was getting and couldn't figure out how to fix it on the fly. And by on the fly, I mean during a song and taking less than 10 seconds.

Obviously, others do better and I might have too, but I lost patience.

For the moment, I'm using a JC55. It's not the best sound I ever heard, but it's never that bad either.

[Oscar67]

Modeling is a godsend and it’s here to stay. It offers super-easy access to good sounds, costs little and weighs nothing. Pros use it because of consistency, dependability and portability (and not having to take beloved tube amps on the road anymore). Like most modern electronics products there’s a sustainability issue because repair is often more expensive than tossing it in the bin and getting another one. It adds to the mountain of cyberjunk.

I’ve tried and will keep trying modeling products. Perhaps one day I will bond with one and I look forward to that. Apart from a basic clean tone (not bad but nothing to write home about) I can’t get out of them what I need. It feels alien to me. This may not make sense, but what I experience as a player is pretty much what actually happens in the modeling amp. The analog signal is converted to digital, then digitally manipulated to mimic a certain amp/effects chain, and converted back to analogue. So in a sense, what goes in is disconnected from what comes out. And that’s what I feel as a player.

[Stefan Eff]

I think Fender nailed it with the tonemaster series: one amp that perfectly emulates THAT one sound of the tube original with all the original knobs working the original way. Nothing more, except the original look. No rabbit hole with myriads of options. That’s cool!

Maybe we‘ll see less „tons of amps“- in a box like Kempers in the future but more perfectly emulated originals from the other big names. At least for the professional guitarist.

But honestly, tube amps are always the benchmark and they‘ll always be the first choice in recording situations.

[Roberoo]

I am back to using my Katana 50 after many detours through tubes and solid state. Dropped a Celestion speaker in mine and use the “sneaky amp” clean Matchless model and get a great sound IMO. Light, reliable and consistent night after night. If someone steals it there is no problem replacing the thing. I get lots of compliments about the tone and looks of shocked dismay when they see it is a Katana,

[GuyBoden]

I've been using amp modelling software on computer and laptops for over 20 years for recording, the latency 20 years ago wasn't great, but today's amp modelling can run on a moderate speed laptop without any noticeable latency, so can be used live.

My rig is this:

Guitar -> Music Interface -> Laptop -> Modelling Software -> Class C Power amp -> PA Speakers

[Markmann]

I've been using modelers since they first appeared many years ago and I think they are a very useful tool but I have never been happy with the clean tones for jazz. I'm definitely not a tube snob but for a neck humbucker clean tone I really like the sound of tubes. I was more than a bit surprised to see that modelers are so popular with jazzers in the poll.