The weight of old Gibson ES guitars makes all the difference

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 02-05-2020, 02:05 PM

I own 3 vintage ES guitars now. One from the 40s, one from the 50s and one from the 60s. They all have dogear pups and what they have in common too is their weight. They are very light compared to my later guitars. Especially my 1947 ES 300 is feather light but my ES 350 is not that much heavier. Same for my 125. The result is a vibrant and resonant guitar in each case.

More recent ES guitars still sound good but they are built like a tank. The plates are way heavier on them. Unplugged there is usually not much going on.

I unplugged my ES 350 and recorded it, just like I did earlier with my 125. The result is not bad for a laminate guitar. Old woods dudes! A great guitar for watching TV at night! Remember Gibson never meant this guitar to be used as an acoustic!

The guitar is not setup to be played as an acoustic. Forgive the clipping in the sound. I have little experience with recording acoustics.

The rhythm guitar is my 125, recorded acoustically too.

DB

**Gitterbug** · 02-05-2020, 02:34 PM

I, too, believe that weight matters as much as, if not more than, the age of the wood. Some years ago I was playing acoustic duo with a friend. He has an all-solid wood carved archtop, while I was using my Godin 5th Avenue. Mine was actually louder, and would have sounded even better with bronze strings. As well, my ES-175 VOS 59 (2014 I believe) is quite different from the more contemporary 175s I've owned or tried. The flipside is, of course, feedback when going electric. With the ES, never an issue. With 5th Ave, manageable (otherwise they wouldn't sell). The light I'm beginning to see is an ES-150 or 350 with CC. Charlie, Barney, is that you smiling at the end of the beam?

**mr. beaumont** · 02-05-2020, 02:52 PM

My experience is more limited than yours, but in what I've been able to glean in the guitars I've tried is that a lightly built plywood Gibson with a P-90 is kind of a magical thing.

**Woody Sound** · 02-05-2020, 04:19 PM

I think there's a honeymoon going on at DB's place.

**neatomic** · 02-05-2020, 06:39 PM

i love the light weight of a vintage guitar...old wood-dried properly, thinner laminates, better more traditional glues, lighter finishes...plus-most importantly- the drying out of the wood and materials with time...the resonance is unbeatable!!! even solid bodies benefit!!

modern guitars are built with new wood, heavier finishes..they are deliberately made more "sturdy" to endure the rigors of modern life ie the warranty!! haha

but a light old gibby, is a wonderful thing

enjoy db

cheers

**lawson-stone** · 02-05-2020, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gitterbug

I, too, believe that weight matters as much as, if not more than, the age of the wood. Some years ago I was playing acoustic duo with a friend. He has an all-solid wood carved archtop, while I was using my Godin 5th Avenue. Mine was actually louder, and would have sounded even better with bronze strings. As well, my ES-175 VOS 59 (2014 I believe) is quite different from the more contemporary 175s I've owned or tried. The flipside is, of course, feedback when going electric. With the ES, never an issue. With 5th Ave, manageable (otherwise they wouldn't sell). The light I'm beginning to see is an ES-150 or 350 with CC. Charlie, Barney, is that you smiling at the end of the beam?

Strangely, I find my VOS1959 ES175 much less prone to feedback than my 2015 ES175 "Figured" model. They differ greatly in weight, but overall the VOS is much more feedback resistant.

**entresz** · 02-05-2020, 07:57 PM

The thin / lightly built laminate guitars have a really special sound.
I remember years back trying a new ES175 and being really disappointed with how it sounded. It was so dull. It had a really thick top - it was really heavy.

My current favourite gigging guitar is a 1983 Epiphone Emperor, they used light/thin laminates on those. More like what 50's era Gibsons had. In fact I had a play of a 1949 Gibson ES-5 and even that was built quite a bit heavier than my Epi.

I ditched the humbuckers in the Epi and put in some Dynasonics, now it has a great 50's bop sound. I was inspired to try Dynasonics by Billy Bean. They're a perfect match for this guitar.

I've never played an ES-350 yet but I really want to try one - yours sounds incredible! Some older laminate guitars can actually sound louder acoustically than more modern carved tops.

**jads57** · 02-05-2020, 08:06 PM

Here's where I must respectfully disagree with you fellas. I think you perceive light weight with older wood that has low moisture content. I'm 62 years old and have owned so many vintage as well as newer Gibson's it should be considered criminal,LOL!

I keep saying this newer Gibson's from the last 5 to 10 years are the best instruments they have consistently made in their history. I'm not infatuated with the past or name association of any guitar. I play them in real gig and studio situations where it matters most. And I will gladly compare any same instrument from it's vintage counterpart to it's newer model.

**neatomic** · 02-05-2020, 08:09 PM

favored vid about body resonance from forum member/luthier barry "grez" of grez guitars

he also has vids of him making laminate tops..good stuff

props bg!

cheers

**citizenk74** · 02-05-2020, 08:34 PM

A nice rendition of one of my favorite songs. Thanks, DB!

**Stringswinger** · 02-06-2020, 12:56 AM

I think there are good and bad (and a few great) guitars from all periods. I think some of the reissue lightweight ES guitars are as good or better than some of the old ones. And I think that while there are differences between lightly built and heavily built ES guitars, neither is "better". They are different and each player must decide which one is his/her own preference. I happen to like both.....

**oldane** · 02-06-2020, 06:25 AM

Sounds really good for a laminate guitar. If you should ever wish to do acoustic 4-to-the-bar comping just raise the action a bit, put a mike in front of the guitar and you are set to go. I think the drier sound (as compared to a carved top) of this guitar lends itself well to that kind of playing.

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 02-06-2020, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I think there are good and bad (and a few great) guitars from all periods. I think some of the reissue lightweight ES guitars are as good or better than some of the old ones. And I think that while there are differences between lightly built and heavily built ES guitars, neither is "better". They are different and each player must decide which one is his/her own preference. I happen to like both.....

In my post the only thing I wanted to express is the weight and liveliness of the old ES guitars, resulting in a better acoustic tone. I agree that modern guitars can sound equally good or better amplified. I love my 82 175 and my 1998 Tal. These are the guitars that I use for live playing. I did not mean to say at all that vintage guitars are "better." Just often lighter and livelier sounding unamped. I have little experience with the VOS reissues ...

So we actually agree here.

DB

**jads57** · 02-06-2020, 05:51 PM

Sorry didn't mean to be rude with my post. I actually have an Elferink Tonemaster archtop for over 5 years now I gig regularly with. And I'm as happy as any vintage Gibson I've ever owned or played.
The nice thing is I had it made to my spec preference that were available.Specifically neck shape and size and body depth.

**lawson-stone** · 02-06-2020, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

Sorry didn't mean to be rude with my post. I actually have an Elferink Tonemaster archtop for over 5 years now I gig regularly with. And I'm as happy as any vintage Gibson I've ever owned or played.
The nice thing is I had it made to my spec preference that were available.Specifically neck shape and size and body depth.

I didn't see anything rude about your post. I have acquired 5 recent Gibson archtops and they are all superb. 4 are from the mid 201x and one is 90's which these days I guess is vintage... but all are splendid instruments that I am delighted with.

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 02-07-2020, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I didn't see anything rude about your post. I have acquired 5 recent Gibson archtops and they are all superb. 4 are from the mid 201x and one is 90's which these days I guess is vintage... but all are splendid instruments that I am delighted with.

My work horse is a Norlin (1982) Gibson. Fantastic guitar. Same for my 98 Tal.

DB

**Blackie Jr** · 02-07-2020, 07:26 AM

Yes, lighter is better, ideally the guitar should be built so lightly that it is about to come apart - this allows maximum resonance and tone...

Or at least that's what I read on internet guitar forums !!!

Paradoxically and contrarily, my ES-175 Steve Howe is pretty heavy, and I play it unplugged more than plugged in, and really dig the sound (with Chrome 11's and a funky shaped jazx pick)

And my 1977 Guild F-50 (maple laminate body) weighs a ton but resonates with quite a bit of tonal color

I have played since the late 70's and owned an embarassing number of guitars (serial trader) and these two boat anchors really work for me

I am not discounting anyone else's experience, and I am frankly surprised by these heavy guitars sounding so good...

More research is needed....must find another 50's or 60's Gibson

**EllenGtrGrl** · 02-07-2020, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by neatomic

favored vid about body resonance from forum member/luthier barry "grez" of grez guitars

he also has vids of him making laminate tops..good stuff

props bg!

cheers

Cool vid, but Neatone. If you know me (with my history of owning Country Clubs), I have to wonder if Barry is right about the Gretsch 6192 Country Club he shows as the first guitar, having a laminated top - a fair amount of 6192s with Dynas were made with sold spruce tops (like my old 6196s).

I'm getting Country Club withdrawl again.

Frankly, I never should have gotten rid of my 2003 6196 Country Club (it's the guitar in my avatar photo), or my restored 1954 Country Club. Those guitars killed! They sounded great both clean and dirty, and everybody liked the way they sounded. Both guitars had Dynasonics pickups, and did not have the feedback fighting internal sound post, that went between the top and back of the body, that most Country Clubs have nowadays. As a result, they were both had a very lively sounding acoustic tone. It's tax refund time, and it's looking like I might get another annual bonus from work. I need to look into seeing if I can get my hands on another Dyna loaded Country Club - and ditch the Bigsby on it!. You know me and Country Clubs - they're one of my "can't get over it" guitars. If I get rid of one, sooner or later, I wind up getting another one.

**citizenk74** · 02-07-2020, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Blackie Jr

Yes, lighter is better, ideally the guitar should be built so lightly that it is about to come apart - this allows maximum resonance and tone...

Or at least that's what I read on internet guitar forums !!!

Paradoxically and contrarily, my ES-175 Steve Howe is pretty heavy, and I play it unplugged more than plugged in, and really dig the sound (with Chrome 11's and a funky shaped jazx pick)

And my 1977 Guild F-50 (maple laminate body) weighs a ton but resonates with quite a bit of tonal color

I have played since the late 70's and owned an embarassing number of guitars (serial trader) and these two boat anchors really work for me

I am not discounting anyone else's experience, and I am frankly surprised by these heavy guitars sounding so good...

More research is needed....must find another 50's or 60's Gibson

**neatomic** · 02-07-2020, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

Cool vid, but Neatone. If you know me (with my history of owning Country Clubs), I have to wonder if Barry is right about the Gretsch 6192 Country Club he shows as the first guitar, having a laminated top - a fair amount of 6192s with Dynas were made with sold spruce tops (like my old 6196s).

I'm getting Country Club withdrawl again.

Frankly, I never should have gotten rid of my 2003 6196 Country Club (it's the guitar in my avatar photo), or my restored 1954 Country Club. Those guitars killed! They sounded great both clean and dirty, and everybody liked the way they sounded. Both guitars had Dynasonics pickups, and did not have the feedback fighting internal sound post, that went between the top and back of the body, that most Country Clubs have nowadays. As a result, they were both had a very lively sounding acoustic tone. It's tax refund time, and it's looking like I might get another annual bonus from work. I need to look into seeing if I can get my hands on another Dyna loaded Country Club - and ditch the Bigsby on it!. You know me and Country Clubs - they're one of my "can't get over it" guitars. If I get rid of one, sooner or later, I wind up getting another one.

elllen- country club with dynas is my fave gretsch as well...i was influenced by the late great '54 club..mike wilhelm- early on...

grez is a pretty active member here..maybe he can clarify

wishin you luck...you always talk about them...why look elsewhere? cc!

cheers

**neatomic** · 02-07-2020, 07:03 PM

to all the wiseguys

i dont think anyone said that a light archtop is the only one that sounds good..what was said is that a light archtop is a wonderful thing!!

if i had to chose between a heavy arch that sounded good and a light arch that sounded good..id always go for the light!

aim for the light!

cheers

**Grez** · 02-08-2020, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

Cool vid, but Neatone. If you know me (with my history of owning Country Clubs), I have to wonder if Barry is right about the Gretsch 6192 Country Club he shows as the first guitar, having a laminated top - a fair amount of 6192s with Dynas were made with sold spruce tops (like my old 6196s)..

First let me say that I am not an absolute Gretsch expert, but, my 6192, the one in the video has a laminated maple top. I am not aware of Gretsch ever making a carved maple top. When you see a spruce top on a Gretsch, most often it's still laminated, with some maple or other wood in there. It can be just the top layer is spruce or there are a couple of spruce layers and one maple for stability (crack resistance). There are probably some all spruce tops out there in vintage instruments, but all and all I don't think this is the most common configuration for them.

Of course there are a couple of Gretsch forums where people who really know hang out!

Barry