More about pedal placement. (front vs loop)

[Woody Sound]

My main pedals are a boutique 2-ch preamp/overdrive w/bypass, a chorus, and a delay. Amp has built-in reverb. There are sometimes other things, a tuner, a wah, etc. I know that certain types of pedals seem to work a little better in front of the amp, an others in the exf loop. In an effort to simplify my gigging routine, I've been experimenting with putting everything on one small board and running it one way or the other. IMO, my main pedals overall function better in front of the amp. While the chorus and delay seem to be a tiny bit more consistent in the loop, the overdrive behaves much better in front. Terribly inconsistent in the loop, depending mainly on the amp's own drive and vol settings. So I've been running everything in front, and very happy with the results from gig to gig. As always, YMMV.

[fep]

I've tried it both ways, I also settled on everything in front. I think if you are running your amp pretty clean it doesn't much matter whether the chorus reverb delay are in front or in the loop. Overdrive always in front though, that does matter.

At least that's my experience.

[sgosnell]

The only thing I ever run through the effects loop is the guitar. On my Clarus I sometimes run the guitar through the Line6 G10 wireless direct into the effects return. That gives a nice sound, with just the barest touch of overdrive if I crank the guitar. I run the Clarus flat anyway, so there isn't much change in the tone, if any. I don't much like using the loop, because of the increased noise and the clutter of having so many cables lying around, all collecting dust and noise. Two extra cables is about two too many.

[vintagelove]

Many times putting a distortion pedal in the loop can actually sound better than in front of the amp. However you have to pay attention to gain staging when doing this. The trick is to drive the front end of the distortion pedal and treat it just like you would another gain stage in the amp. It really depends on the amp to determine how successful it will work.

95% of the time, time based effects like Reverb and delay are post distortion.

[zcostilla]

I have a thought and would like someone to weigh in with real experience.

I play a Quilter, and am about to pull the trigger on a compressor/sustainer, and I have reservations about using it before the amp. By design, raising the floor and dropping the ceiling in the input signal is meant to do post-gain (which is why most recording studios add compression the recorded track during mixing). If the goal is to get my solid state amp to mimic the sag of a tube amp, I would think that using it in the effects loop would be closer to what I’m looking for over compressing the input signal.

[Cunamara]

Effects pedals are voltage dependent in terms of their response to input. I think that people are used to hearing that as they adjust the volume control on the guitar. Running pedals in the effects loop presents them with constant voltage that does not vary as the guitar volume control is adjusted. This will make the performance of the pedal much more consistent, but that may not be what your ear is looking for.

I have a hard time with pedals in front of the amp because of the tone suck that invariably occurs, even in pedals with "true bypass" and buffers. There is capacitance added to the high impedance signal path by every single pedal circuit and their connecting wires, no matter how it is designed. True bypass pedals still suck tone when off. Tone suck is less pronounced with a loop. I can manage one pedal, such as a reverb pedal, before the amp but more than that and the tone degrades. And most pedals other than reverb are boring after a couple of bars. Nothing sounds better to me than a low capacitance cable (e.g., George L's 16 pf/foot) straight into an amp with a good spring reverb. YMMV.

[pcjazz]

I have a thought and would like someone to weigh in with real experience.

I play a Quilter, and am about to pull the trigger on a compressor/sustainer, and I have reservations about using it before the amp. By design, raising the floor and dropping the ceiling in the input signal is meant to do post-gain (which is why most recording studios add compression the recorded track during mixing). If the goal is to get my solid state amp to mimic the sag of a tube amp, I would think that using it in the effects loop would be closer to what I’m looking for over compressing the input signal.

Try it both ways and use the one you prefer.

[icr]

I have a thought and would like someone to weigh in with real experience.

I play a Quilter, and am about to pull the trigger on a compressor/sustainer, and I have reservations about using it before the amp. By design, raising the floor and dropping the ceiling in the input signal is meant to do post-gain (which is why most recording studios add compression the recorded track during mixing). If the goal is to get my solid state amp to mimic the sag of a tube amp, I would think that using it in the effects loop would be closer to what I’m looking for over compressing the input signal.

Not sure on that, try it and see, but all you preamp noise is going to be raised with that hookup.

[icr]

In my setup I use the loop if I want the amplifiers preamp distortion. But in real life, to look at my studio setup now, I apply all my effects to the mic'd signal. And, actually only after recording a dry signal, my rack effects are just in the monitor feed.

Reason being, the dry recording can be cut and pasted at will without having to worry about the echo and reverb tails. I then apply software effects in the mixdown.

[fep]

I have a thought and would like someone to weigh in with real experience.

I play a Quilter, and am about to pull the trigger on a compressor/sustainer, and I have reservations about using it before the amp. By design, raising the floor and dropping the ceiling in the input signal is meant to do post-gain (which is why most recording studios add compression the recorded track during mixing). If the goal is to get my solid state amp to mimic the sag of a tube amp, I would think that using it in the effects loop would be closer to what I’m looking for over compressing the input signal.

Maybe this will interest you:

[Woody Sound]

I have a thought and would like someone to weigh in with real experience.

I play a Quilter, and am about to pull the trigger on a compressor/sustainer, and I have reservations about using it before the amp. By design, raising the floor and dropping the ceiling in the input signal is meant to do post-gain (which is why most recording studios add compression the recorded track during mixing). If the goal is to get my solid state amp to mimic the sag of a tube amp, I would think that using it in the effects loop would be closer to what I’m looking for over compressing the input signal.

Kind of silly by me, but the MicroPro has a built-in compressor, if that's the model you have.

[Spook410]

For me it's a question of consistent gain staging and tone suck. However, I also want everything on a simple pedal board. I use a Grace Designs Felix on the board which is a high quality preamp with good EQ. In addition to an amp out and DI out, it has an FX loop so my reverb/tremolo/looper go through that. Find I can set the gain on the pedals and leave it without worrying about the vagaries of the room or volume level I'm playing at. In a setup with more pedals (currently putting together an ambient board that will include a lot more processing), consistency and solid gain staging will be even more important. While good pedals often have good buffering, once you get a bunch of them together seems noise and loss are inevitable.

[Fred98]

True bypass will suck tone even when its off? How do they do that?
Buffers suck tone too?
But in fx loop its less pronounced?
Please explain, thanks.

Effects pedals are voltage dependent in terms of their response to input. I think that people are used to hearing that as they adjust the volume control on the guitar. Running pedals in the effects loop presents them with constant voltage that does not vary as the guitar volume control is adjusted. This will make the performance of the pedal much more consistent, but that may not be what your ear is looking for.

I have a hard time with pedals in front of the amp because of the tone suck that invariably occurs, even in pedals with "true bypass" and buffers. There is capacitance added to the high impedance signal path by every single pedal circuit and their connecting wires, no matter how it is designed. True bypass pedals still suck tone when off. Tone suck is less pronounced with a loop. I can manage one pedal, such as a reverb pedal, before the amp but more than that and the tone degrades. And most pedals other than reverb are boring after a couple of bars. Nothing sounds better to me than a low capacitance cable (e.g., George L's 16 pf/foot) straight into an amp with a good spring reverb. YMMV.

[KirkP]

True bypass will suck tone even when its off? How do they do that?
Buffers suck tone too?
But in fx loop its less pronounced?
Please explain, thanks.

Magnetic coil pickups are greatly affected by capacitive loads. Instrument cables are capacitors (two conductors separated by a dielectric), with a capacitance that increases in proportion to cable length. All the cable between your pickup and the first buffer or preamp contributes to that capacitance. Each connector adds some capacitance too,

If your first pedal is buffered (not true bypass), your pickup won’t be affected by the cable past that point. But if all your pedals are true bypass, then your pickup will “see” all the cable capacitance between you and your amp. That may not be a problem if you just have one or two true bypass pedals, use low capacitance cables, and keep them short.

If you have several true bypass pedals and/or significant cable lengths between your guitar and amp, it’s a good idea to make sure that the first pedal is *not* true bypass. The buffer in that first pedal will ensure that subsequent cables don’t load down the pickup.

Taking this a little further...

Active pickups put a buffer in the guitar itself, which totally isolates the pickup from the cable. You can simulate this by connecting a buffered pedal to your guitar with an extremely short instrument cable. But pickup manufacturers assume you’ll have a nominal cable capacitance, so if you buffer at the guitar you may not like the result.

[Fred98]

Magnetic coil pickups are greatly affected by capacitive loads. Instrument cables are capacitors (two conductors separated by a dielectric), with a capacitance that increases in proportion to cable length. All the cable between your pickup and the first buffer or preamp contributes to that capacitance. Each connector adds some capacitance too,

If your first pedal is buffered (not true bypass), your pickup won’t be affected by the cable past that point. But if all your pedals are true bypass, then your pickup will “see” all the cable capacitance between you and your amp. That may not be a problem if you just have one or two true bypass pedals, use low capacitance cables, and keep them short.

If you have several true bypass pedals and/or significant cable lengths between your guitar and amp, it’s a good idea to make sure that the first pedal is *not* true bypass. The buffer in that first pedal will ensure that subsequent cables don’t load down the pickup.

Taking this a little further...

Active pickups put a buffer in the guitar itself, which totally isolates the pickup from the cable. You can simulate this by connecting a buffered pedal to your guitar with an extremely short instrument cable. But pickup manufacturers assume you’ll have a nominal cable capacitance, so if you buffer at the guitar you may not like the result.

Thanks alot, i already know that.
Its all variable and depends on how many pedals, cable length, signal routing etc. Measured in picofarad a true bypass pedals capacitive load might equal ca. 100-200mm cable, is that audible?

But the buffers, i still dont understand how they suck tone and which ones? Opamp buffers, transistor buffers? What about the buffers input/output impedance etc etc.

[zcostilla]

Kind of silly by me, but the MicroPro has a built-in compressor, if that's the model you have.

I have the Interblock 45. Working on perfecting a homemade pedalboard but I’m not happy with the first layout, so back to the drawing board.

[zcostilla]

Maybe this will interest you:

Thanks! I plan on the same thing, drive in the front, modulation in the effects loop. Right now it’s just a Hall of Fame 2 reverb pedal, but looking at a couple different compressor/sustainer pedals, and maybe a 12ax7 tube preamp pedal. If I had the extra cash, I’d get the White Whale reverb & tremolo unit, but since we’re looking to move to upstate SC this year, I’ll probably wait a bit on that.

[KirkP]

But the buffers, i still dont understand how they suck tone and which ones? Opamp buffers, transistor buffers? What about the buffers input/output impedance etc etc.

A single buffer shouldn’t suck tone unless it’s poor quality. But if you have a chain of buffered pedals any nonlinearities add up, especially if some pedals have less than ideal buffers.

[pauln]

I don't use pedals, but if I did it would be this:
(The picture on my screen is about actual size)

[pcjazz]

I don't use pedals, but if I did it would be this:
(The picture on my screen is about actual size)

Even if you don't use pedals you could use this one, with these settings.

[Woody Sound]

Even if you don't use pedals you could use this one, with these settings.

[pauln]

Even if you don't use pedals you could use this one, with these settings.

“Look, it’s people like you what cause unrest.”

[TedBPhx]

Lack of an FX loop has kept me away from Deluxes and Twins. But power adjust Tone Masters are wearing me down. Why Fender, why?

[Ray175]

Lack of an FX loop has kept me away from Deluxes and Twins. But power adjust Tone Masters are wearing me down. Why Fender, why?

Well Ted, I succumbed, and took delivery of a TMDR last week. Previously I used a traditional pedal setup with some pedals before the amp and others in the loop of my Princeton Recording. Now, all the pedals are up front because the TMDR had no loop. It took a while to adjust settings (particularly the Keeley Compressor), but a week later I am more than a happy bunny with the results - plus all the useful extras of the TMDR, especially the weight (my ageing back says (“ thank you”) and the excellent attenuator.

Give one a try. I’m confident you won’t be disappointed.....

[Spook410]

I did not realize the Tonemasters lacked an fx loop.