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I've been musing over this question as I've just bought a samick archtop, which although nice, but could not be described as beautiful. I feel it also needed some finishing off to make it nice to play. I am not a very good player and for me much of the joy of owning a guitar is that it is a beautiful object as well as making a pleasing sound. In my spare time I do some instrument restoration and although I haven't made a whole guitar yet I hope to accomplish that soon. I was thinking what would be the most important features and what price is about right for the perfect guitar. My thoughts at the moment are that the back and sides could be laminate or plywood with an attractive figured veneer on the outside to keep costs down, and the front should be carved spruce. It should have nitrocellulose lacquer rather than the thick poly finish that most mass produced instruments have. I think the neck should have a dovetail joint and be cantilevered so it only contacts the top in the area of the neck block so as not to inhibit the vibration of the top. After that I imagine that colour, inlays, binding and electrics are all personal taste. And price - what is a good price??? I'm sure you can see what I'm thinking. Some time in the future I would love to market a hand made instrument but with elements of mass production to keep the costs down in order to hit that middle ground of a good quality attractive guitar made to customers requirements but that costs less than a gibson or really high end luthiers. Maybe this exists already though. Perhaps the new D'angelico excel range or similar. What do people think?
Last edited by plasticpigeon; 01-07-2010 at 08:29 AM.
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01-07-2010 07:07 AM
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Personally I prefer the sound and practicality of a laminate topped guitar to a carved spruce top.
Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
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I agree. I have owned and played a number of archtops over the years, including Benedettos, Ribbecke's and D'Angelicos that cost more than some people pay for a car. However, I wound up with an older ES175. I just like that sound better. Originally Posted by Bill C
I am considering a guitar by Jim Triggs that is his version of an L5. All solid woods. I find many of the solid wood archtops built by the many wonderful luthiers that are around currently, a bit too bright for my ears. YMMV
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i need the playability uber alles. i like a relatively wide nut width, a chunkier neck profile, and most importantly, small frets. pickups can be changed, things can be tweaked, but playability is the most important.
the acoustic tone of an archtop doesn't concern me as much, because i'm doing my gigging plugged in, and a good acoustic tone does not always equal a good plugged in tone. a nice acoustic tone would be for home enjoyment--which is great, but i'm perfectly fine with the acoustic tone of my godin, which is minimal to say the least!
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The first decision I would make would be to decide if I wanted to build an acoustic with pickups that sounds good unplugged like Jazzboxes, or a semi-hollow that's built for an amp., like the ES-335's, or pickups at all.
Then I'd decide what neck type would fit my hand and playing style, like m beaumont says. Flat, short scale, or long scale high arched, fat frets, or thin, thick grip or thin. How big are your hands? Do you need a cutaway on the body to access the higher frets?
To me, gold hardware makes an archtop look classic.
I don't think there is a perfect guitar for everyone, the ES-175's a jazz icon, the Epiphone Emperor is a classic vintage look. Everyone has different requirements.
There are some beautiful, high end archtops in Robert Shaw's book, Hand Made Hand Played, The art and craft of contemporary guitars, available at www.stewmac.com. for your inspiration.
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- wide nut
- fat neck profile(I can palm a discus)
- preferably a single floating neck pup
- preferably solid carved wood (The Loar guitar are the only ones I can afford in this category)
- thick body
- wide lower bout
- a deep cut-a-way
- some ebony would be nice
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What I would want in an archtop would be laminate, smaller bodied to deter feedback, Florentine cutaway with a wooden tailpiece and bridge, 25 in. scale, and some approxomation of the PRS "wide-thin" neck carve, which isn't really all that thin. I guess the neck would need to be maple and 3 or 5 pc. for strength. I would want the frets to be on the medium to small side. I'd have to agree with Mr. B as far as playability taking priority since electronics can be changed, and acoustic tone would definitely take a back seat for me. My current archtop (Ibanez AK95) sounds like a shoebox strung with fishing line acoustically but great plugged in.
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My point is apparent: set your sights on what you hope to achieve. If you want to sound like an imitation, buy an imitation - the BEST imitation is still an imitation. Good instruments continue to gain value while providing satifaction (historical and otherwise) that MIK, MIC, MII etc, cannot provide, in my opinion.
Check out the post summarized a couple of months back, based on a survey of the instruments that forum members bought compared to their current worth. It's not rocket science ... take a look at the instruments that those whom you most admire play - unless there is an endorsement contract involved, those guitars don't originate somewhere west of Hawaii. Do you have a particular reason to contribute to the Chinese economy?
I have no desire to buy you anything - if you want to own a quality product that will increase in value, making you proud to hold it respectfully in your hands, you'll have to obtain it the same way I did and all the others here who own them did. If you're satisfied with your current instrument, that's great. Although there may be no direct connection between aspirations, talent and the instruments used to get from "A" to "B" ... the indirect ones are so obvious that it's silly to discuss the connections. Take a look around, does your Symphony Orchestra play Chinese instruments?
The Emperor Regent that you mentioned as a "goal" coincidentally happens to be the only Asian instrument that I've owned. Please do a search on my report dealing with the dissection of that guitar and read it. My impression: cheap stuff, top to bottom - shiny finish and little else.
cheers,
randyc
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Wow, this is interesting, I can see that there is a huge variety of tastes amongst players here. I assumed that everyone would aspire to own an L5 or a D'Angelico but probably couldn't justify the expense but not at all!
I've been looking at slaman guitars recently. I am amazed he is allowed to produce such close replicas of gibson guitars without getting into trouble. It is bizarre to me as I imagine a handmade gibson copy could well cost more than new gibson!!!!
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For me, it's the magical combination of good playability, good tone, and it has to be ugly so nobody will want to steal it off of the bandstand.
I'm currently thinking about getting this guitar:
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From his website (http://www.slamanguitars.com/): Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
"As with all guitars from the New Vintage serie, this is not an exact copy but obviously based on the (fill in a name) guitar."
Brad
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I look for different things depending on what I want to play. If I could only have one, I would look for a laminated top with built in pickups. It wouldn't be much good in acoustic settings, but would be versatile in amplified situations. Usually they have enough acoustic sound for playing around the house, especially late at night when you don't want to disturb anybody. For this I have a Guild X-170 from the late 80s. For years it was my only archtop. If you aren't familiar with this model, it has a 24.75" scale with two humbuckers and is opften compared to the Gibson ES-175 (but usually for a lot less money).
FWIW, a lot of the other Guild archtop models (used) can often be found for about the same price as a new Korean or Chinese instrument.
Just my 2 cents.
Brad
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Guild = the best values in archtops from the "golden era"
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Re: This Asian made vs. American made discussion.
While resale value may be better for American made guitars, price and quality don't go hand in hand. You can buy an old strat for $30,000 or an old Les Paul for $80,000... but the price reflects a collectors item value not a players value. For some reason beyond how well they play, how well they are made, and how good they sound, American guitars have better resale value.
But, I've never sold a guitar. If you are most concerned about playing an instrument then go try them out side by side. That's what I did, Heritage vs. Eastman... imo the Eastman was a better instrument (I really wanted to buy American all things being equal and price wasn't the issue, I paid $1,900). Try the instruments out, choose based on quality of workmanship, playability and sound. Ignore where it was made.
Just because it's made in Asia doesn't make it an inferior instrument.
And do you really think George Benson or Pat Metheny would play an inferior instrument just to receive an endorsement fee (certainly the market for these instruments isn't that large, the fee must be relatively small)?. I don't think so.Last edited by fep; 01-11-2010 at 01:15 PM.
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Of course, Pat Metheny also plays custom guitars from luthiers like Canadian Linda Manzer: Originally Posted by fep
(the Pikasso guitar)
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A real beer guitar if I ever did see one! Originally Posted by JohnRosett
Eddie
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I tend to like a fatter neck with medium frets, 25" scale, mounted pickup, laminate to limit feedback when plugged in. That stated, when played at lower volumes, my ears prefer a nice carved solid top.
I bought an Eastman 810ce in 2005 and really like the way it plays, sounds, looks, etc. A great guitar for the budget that I had at the time. The one thing that it does is feedback at medium and up volumes, as do carved archtops. I did however see Laurence Juber at a show about 5 years ago playing an Eastman 810ce at volumes with no feedback issues... obviously in the hands of a master feedback can be controlled.
I save and save and recently bought a used Benedetto Bravo Deluxe. A great guitar... laminate body/sides, mounted pickup, 25" scale... great sound, playability, construction, etc. I really like the design of the cutaway for extremely comfortable reach on the higher frets. I prefer to play the Bravo as it is more motivational for me and has "that sound" that I am currently desiring. That stated, I have no plans to replace the Eastman with a carved Benedetto as I just cannot justify the extreme difference in cost between the Eastman and the Benedetto... at least at my level of skill. The Eastman is a great guitar for the price. Resale is not so good, but I don't plan on selling. Both my archtops are keepers
I do understand and appreciate the differences, both political/economic and quality of American made guitars vs. Asian made guitars but no everyone can afford a quality American made guitar.
As others have stated, play all the archtops you can find to determine which guitars fit your hands, style of playing, and tone you desire... then look at the price and hope you can afford the one you really desire.Last edited by Steve Z; 01-11-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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Throw in some guitar design philosophy also. Are you a minamilist guitar builder who thinks less is more? A light weight, built for tone guitar with little binding, lightweight tuners, ebony tailpiece, no fancy details. Simple eligance.
Or do you see a guitar design that's more like an old jazz box, with a heavy tailpiece, fancy binding and headstock, Grover Imperial tuners, block inlays, big pickguard?
I don't think you can please everyone with one guitar.
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Obviously I DO think that certain artists are playing certain instruments because of contractual agreement. Otherwise I woudn't have said so. I agree with you, the market is not large, IT'S HUGE Originally Posted by fep
Gibson runs three shifts a day, just making Les Pauls, for every Les Paul shipped, at least one hundred "other" guitars are made and purchased. Because the mark-up on Asian-made instruments is hundreds of percent, the profit margin is also hundreds of percent. An American manufacturer with a profit margin exceeding 15% represents a company that is fat and happy, secure in it's market share.
Doesn't take much time to walk into any large music store and count the "other" manufacturers hanging on the wall. Those "other" instruments wouldn't be there unless the store was selling them - remember that those stores pay inventory taxes. They don't stock guitars that don't sell profitably. I don't even have to pick up a calculator to make an estimate of the advertising and endorsement budgets of these Asian manufacturers, they probably exceed Gibson's total annual sales figures.
As far as the quality versus price issue goes, there's no agreeable standard for evaluating quality, it's far too subjective a term. The only way we have to determine the value of an instrument is the manner by which values have always been determined: by what people are willing to pay.
If you never intend to sell an instrument, then obviously that's of no concern but you belong to an extremely small minority, if that's the case. Personally I haven't sold a guitar since I was 23 (I'm 65 now) but LOTS of fine instruments passed through my hands in the years between ages 15 and 23, LOL, despite good intentions, I lost guitars that I'd truly love to have back. At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I made money on every transaction along with the disappointment of losing some really nice instruments ...
There are greater issues at work here than simple quality issues, unhappily. Yesterday, it was reported that China has become the largest exporter in the world. Think about it - consider the nuances of that simple sentence. Think about the world-leading industries that this country once possessed that no longer exist:
Steel manufacturing
Textiles
Aircraft manufacturing
Shipbuilding
Machine tool manufacturing
Semiconductor fabrication
Most recently, the automobile industry
All the small businesses forced out by the Walmarts
Many more than my tired old brain can recall
Those aren't just jobs disappearing over the horizon, it's an entire way of life that's being eroded. Our educational system, medical systems are in a shambles, greed is part of the problem, unwillingness to pay fair share of taxes is part of the problem, this false sense of "thrift" is part of the problem.
I used to worry about China's rising technology and wonder what would happen if (knock on wood) we became involved in armed conflict. I don't worry about that at all, any more, I can't see it ever happening. They pretty much own us now and their share in this country increases by the minute. They would have no motivation to damage their investment and it's not in our interest to dispute with our creditor and major stockholder.
Before someone mistakes my attitude toward the Chinese (and other successful Asian countries that copy and sell our goods) for xenophobia, I've repeatedly said that I admire their ambition and their economic strategy. I wish that we western countries had a healthy portion of both. And be assured that the workers in Asia see this situation for what it is: their opportunity to have all of the things that we in this country have had and taken for granted.
Failure to recognize that this country is in decline assures that the way of life that we have enjoyed will not be possible for those that follow us. I'm no radical America-Firster with a "foxhole attitude". I'm a card-carrying Liberal Democrat with a capital "L" who happens to recognize in the last few years of my life that we have taken a false turn - many false turns, actually.
Are you old enough to remember the slogan: "What's Good For General Motors Is Good For America"? Back in the day, my friends and I laughed derisively at that. We assumed that there could be no possible connection between the benefit of the shareholders of GM and us! Corporate bottom line profit does not insure that you and I have a better life, does it?
UNLESS the corporation disappears, what about that little problem?
Job losses from the failing company, supporting industries also close or lay off employees, mortgages are unpaid, homes repossessed - oops no property taxes collected. Banks and mortgage companies start to lose income - doctors, dentists, shoemakers and Indian chiefs are affected. Maybe even lawyers. Community services must still be performed, who makes up the deficit from the lack of property taxes?
Groceries have to be cut in households without employment, people need to survive so they apply for welfare, food stamps and so forth. No medical insurance so the kids have to go to the emergency room for flu treatment - health care costs increase and so do insurance premiums. Who pays?
Politically inexpedient, taxes are not increased so libraries, work programs even SCHOOLS close. The teachers and employees are out on the street and have the same economic problems as the auto company assembly line worker.
Roads don't get repaired, transport companies replace tires more frequently, perform maintenance more often. Shipping costs increase and get passed along to the consumer.
Manufacturers (employers) that have raw material cost increases and who are mandated to pay insurance costs become less competitive. They have to cut costs so they buy cheaper material from Asia, export jobs to India and lay off the workers that have been loyal to the corporation, perhaps since they were employed out of high school ...
Everyone is suffering from the diminishment of standard of living, pennies have to be pinched and we go to Walmart .... to save money, right? Local small businesses collapse because they are underpriced by Chinese imports, distributed by Walmart (Musician's "Friend") and the like. And the way that capitalism and markets function is by competition - if there is little or no competition then prices can be whatever the controlling interest dictates.
Get the impression that there is a feedback mechanism at work in this process?
Buying one Asian guitar doesn't represent the Decline And Fall Of Western Civilization but the attitude behind that purchasing decision does. Look around your house and count the number of products that originate outside of North America (or the EU, for our European friends).
There's a problem and no one wants to recognize it. It may, in fact, be too late.
cheers,
randyc
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From my experience, Eastmans are great guitArs, well made, excellent sound, Id recommend em to anybody. Would I trade em for my Gibson s? No, but still....
In afew years, I may get a7 string, and the 1st place ID look is the Eastman el Rey 7 string. Also, my sadowsky was made in japan.--like all of Rogers guitars ...
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Agreed on your statement of Eastmans and trading thoughts. Regarding the El Rey Eastman, I recommend that if you decide to get one check with Jeff Hale (J. Hale Music Supply - Premium Jazz Guitar, Jazz Bass, Amplification Equipment And Accessories) as he does a mod to the El Reys to make them more balanced as the stock El Rey is rather top heavy and the neck definitely drops when wearing the guitar on a strap... a real pain, but gorgeous tone! Originally Posted by NSJ
Originally Posted by from Hale website
Last edited by Steve Z; 01-11-2010 at 04:32 PM.
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I believe the western world still designs and owns the intellectual property to many products even if they are not made in the west. However I understand what randy is saying as I work as an engineer in the automotive sector and am disappointed at the continual struggle that seems to plague the industry despite making good products (Jaguar cars is close to where I live, and one of the midlands factories is to close soon). I would very much like to buy a western made guitar but there is not the choice. Everything is very high end. I think hofner make some nice guitars that aren't as expensive as American made instruments but are still pricey. I hope it would be possible to make a more affordable guitar in the west but I think it couldn't be as cheap as far eastern guitars because of labour costs, and with jazz guitars particularly I wonder if enough are sold to invest in any mass production equipment. I think there is a gap in the market to fill though.
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Godin Guitars Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
Not as cheap as some Asians guitars, but gets a lot of good reviews around here!
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I'd buy a Godin Kingpin II today if they were available with a single floating humbucker in lieu of the two P90s... and, preferably, a slightly wider neck. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Pickups: floating pickups are less common on laminated tops, so you may be looking awhile for that combo, unless you modify the guitar yourself. Originally Posted by Hoopskidoodle
Wider neck: The Fifth Avenues are 1.72", what are you looking for, 1.75"? That's subtle. I find neck contour makes a bigger difference to me than small differences in nut width, but maybe that's just me.
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