Guitar Amps vs Studio Engineer EQing

**VanEpsInDeChirico** · 10-07-2019, 02:10 PM

Hi AllI’ve only been playing for a couple of years. I’ve been playing an Epiphone Les Paul Standard through a Vox valvtronix amp the entire time. I never considered I’d ever become a “gear guy” or particularly interested in tone per se. My line has been “well if you can PLAY well, who cares what kind of amp/guitar you are using. Its gonna sound good.” But sitting 3 or 4 hours a day with a guitar has gotten me to the point where it has become a concern / interest of mine. One thing that is obvious is that people love Fender tube amps. There was a survey done on this website a while back that found (I forget the exact number) but a vast majority of respondents felt Fender made the best amps for jazz. The Vox amp I own and play for several hours a day has an 8 inch speaker and is very bright. So when I go to the music store and plug into say, a Deluxe Reverb Reissue, it sounds to my ear, insanely bassy to the point of being muddy no matter how I dial the tone knobs. I’m not saying I don’t like it I do. The attack and response to how I pick is clearly nicer than on the cheap little Vox I paid 100 bucks for, no question. I think its even fair to say the Deluxe Reverb is an objectively nicer amp. The Vox has a brittle tinny quality to the high end that is, the more I play other amps, really not very nice to hear. BUT….although I know many many of the greats recording in the mid and late1960s played through a similar Fender amp, virtually NONE of those recordings sound anything like what that amplifier sounds like when I play it in a music store. My hunch is that the recording engineer has often tweaked the EQ/ compressed the guitar track to such a degree that much of the Fenderness of the amp has been negated. Listen to Kenny Burrell on Freight Trane for example. Or George Benson on “The Cooker.” These guitars don’t sound very much like any amp I’ve played period.Yet I imagine they are playing Fender tube amps or something very very similar. There is clarity and articulation on those recordings that those amps do not have as far as I can tell. And it should be noted I am testing them with typical jazz guitars (ES 175 types mostly). In fact when I record my own playing through the Vox, EQ it and compress it in Logic Pro, I can get it to sound more like a 60s recording than I can get an actual Fender tube amp to sound like in real life. Early 1960s and earlier jazz guitar recordings tend to sound more like the actual amps being played. Listen to Jimmy Raney on a Stan Getz tune like “Lee” for example. This sounds pretty Fendery. Or go back as far as Charlie Christian and although he is playing with a very different amp/ pick up combo, those recordings SOUND much more like a Fender tube amp in real life than Fender Tube amps on a 1967 recording sounds in general. So when people say they love Fender tube amps, are they mostly speaking about how they sound live with a band? Because when these amps are recorded, they sound completely different from one recording to another and really don’t sound like the amps do in an actual room in real life. As far as I can tell, we can probably get virtually any amp to sound any way we want on a recording with good engineering skills. For my own practicing pleasure I’m considering investing in a nicer amp. But if I was strictly recording, I’m not sure the amp would be of much importance. Curious what others think about this.

**VanEpsInDeChirico** · 10-07-2019, 02:13 PM

apologies for the formatting on my post. i don't post here much and can't figure out how to make paragraph breaks. when i edit the post my changes don't appear. : )

**gitman** · 10-07-2019, 03:38 PM

The recordings you are referring to were made in the early 60's IIRC so you have to take into consideration the vintage gear they had in the studio : 2, maybe 4 track tape recorders, the board and all outboard gear (EQ) was tube driven, so it was a purely analog signal chain from beginning to end. That results in a subtle "degradation" of the signal, a limited frequency response, an ever so slight distortion of the upper harmonics after the limiting effect of the magnetic tape. These factors all play in the final sound of the guitars, in addition to them having played through Fender or Ampeg or Gibson tube amps, probably of lower wattage. The engineers really knew how to mike up these amps and also knew how to use the room for getting a coherent group-sound. I've long been working on copping Kenny's sound on some of his 60's recordings and one thing that has helped (besides practice and some nice vintage gear) is the use of a good compressor effect, set really low. Another idea that works for some is an overdrive pedal on the lowest setting. The guitar amps got progressively louder and more brilliant with each new model line, the cables had less and less resistance, the speakers got more efficient - so many factors all play into this.... enjoy the journey as I do even though I doubt that I'll ever get there.....

**rabbit** · 10-07-2019, 04:14 PM

Sorry, I don't really know squat about this but at about 30:45 this guy talks about the difference in wall voltage between "then" & now.You might want to know.Rig Rundown - Dave Cobb - YouTube

**citizenk74** · 10-07-2019, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by rabbit

Sorry, I don't really know squat about this but at about 30:45 this guy talks about the difference in wall voltage between "then" & now.You might want to know.Rig Rundown - Dave Cobb - YouTube

I used to run into this at a few places we used to play. At a certain point after midnight or one AM the amps would go all saggy and weak as the electric company would adjust the line voltage or something of the sort (and not in a good way); and of course Murphy's Law remaining unbroken, it would always be during my hot solo... I learned to keep some knob in reserve.

**citizenk74** · 10-07-2019, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by VanEpsInDeChirico

Hi AllI’ve only been playing for a couple of years. I’ve been playing an Epiphone Les Paul Standard through a Vox valvtronix amp the entire time. I never considered I’d ever become a “gear guy” or particularly interested in tone per se. My line has been “well if you can PLAY well, who cares what kind of amp/guitar you are using. Its gonna sound good.” But sitting 3 or 4 hours a day with a guitar has gotten me to the point where it has become a concern / interest of mine. One thing that is obvious is that people love Fender tube amps. There was a survey done on this website a while back that found (I forget the exact number) but a vast majority of respondents felt Fender made the best amps for jazz. The Vox amp I own and play for several hours a day has an 8 inch speaker and is very bright. So when I go to the music store and plug into say, a Deluxe Reverb Reissue, it sounds to my ear, insanely bassy to the point of being muddy no matter how I dial the tone knobs. I’m not saying I don’t like it I do. The attack and response to how I pick is clearly nicer than on the cheap little Vox I paid 100 bucks for, no question. I think its even fair to say the Deluxe Reverb is an objectively nicer amp. The Vox has a brittle tinny quality to the high end that is, the more I play other amps, really not very nice to hear. BUT….although I know many many of the greats recording in the mid and late1960s played through a similar Fender amp, virtually NONE of those recordings sound anything like what that amplifier sounds like when I play it in a music store. My hunch is that the recording engineer has often tweaked the EQ/ compressed the guitar track to such a degree that much of the Fenderness of the amp has been negated. Listen to Kenny Burrell on Freight Trane for example. Or George Benson on “The Cooker.” These guitars don’t sound very much like any amp I’ve played period.Yet I imagine they are playing Fender tube amps or something very very similar. There is clarity and articulation on those recordings that those amps do not have as far as I can tell. And it should be noted I am testing them with typical jazz guitars (ES 175 types mostly). In fact when I record my own playing through the Vox, EQ it and compress it in Logic Pro, I can get it to sound more like a 60s recording than I can get an actual Fender tube amp to sound like in real life. Early 1960s and earlier jazz guitar recordings tend to sound more like the actual amps being played. Listen to Jimmy Raney on a Stan Getz tune like “Lee” for example. This sounds pretty Fendery. Or go back as far as Charlie Christian and although he is playing with a very different amp/ pick up combo, those recordings SOUND much more like a Fender tube amp in real life than Fender Tube amps on a 1967 recording sounds in general. So when people say they love Fender tube amps, are they mostly speaking about how they sound live with a band? Because when these amps are recorded, they sound completely different from one recording to another and really don’t sound like the amps do in an actual room in real life. As far as I can tell, we can probably get virtually any amp to sound any way we want on a recording with good engineering skills. For my own practicing pleasure I’m considering investing in a nicer amp. But if I was strictly recording, I’m not sure the amp would be of much importance. Curious what others think about this.

1) Welcome! 2)One must always keep in mind that the perceived tone of an amp/guitar in the context of a recording is very much affected by its sonic context, apart from the changes in envelope and timbre engendered at the board and applied in the mastering process. Your drummer may affect your (perceived) tone more than you suspect.

**John A.** · 10-07-2019, 06:17 PM

That's quite a paragraph you've got there ...Anyway ... First, it's likely that the speaker in the Fender you tried in the shop reproduces a lot more bass than the Valvtronix you have, and you're just not used to hearing that much bass coming from a guitar amp. Also, archtops can be bassy/boomier than solidbodies. People often adjust for this by lowering the bass side of pickup(s) and playing the bass notes more softly, and by turning the bass down on the amp (I use a Fender Princeton Reverb and usually have the bass turned all the way down, and have the bass side of the neck pup on my archtop and semi-hollow cranked pretty low). What seems like excessive bass might actually be the onset of feedback, so it can also help to move further from the amp change your position, etc, and also turn down the mids. What you heard in the store may be some combination of your lack of familiarity with that gear, and/or that guitar not having those adjustments made. Also, it's true that on recordings the guitar is often mixed with compression and with the bass cut to sit better in the mix and not separate it better from the bass. So, all of the above is my answer to what I think you're asking (i.e., "how come the Fender amp + archtop I tried in a shop is so much bassier than the LP and amp I have at home?")John

**Littlemark** · 10-07-2019, 07:46 PM

Also bare in mind that the room you are in makes a big difference. A good recording room sounds better than a music store.

**sgosnell** · 10-07-2019, 08:19 PM

With a Fender tube amp, start by turning the tone controls all the way off. They don't go to zero, but 1 is close enough. That's flat. Then add a little of one or the other, or both, to taste. I tend to put mine at about 2 or maybe 3 on the dial, often the bass at 1.5 or so. I've found no other settings that are at all acceptable to me. The speaker(s) also make(s) a difference. I've hated the sound of my Vibrolux Reverb for the past 20+ years, until I finally put some Eminence Cannabis Rex speakers in it.

But you're right, the recording engineer can change the sound a lot, and what comes out on the record may be very far from the live sound.

**cosmic gumbo** · 10-08-2019, 12:37 AM

Coltrane and Burrell was recorded in 1958 at Rudy Van Gelder's studio. Seems he had an Ampeg and maybe a Fender tweed deluxe in his studio for guitarists to record with. Burrel sounds like he's using an es175 with p90 into one of those amps, and mind you, a 1958 amp would have had only a volume and one tone control, not separate bass and treble....

**JazzNote** · 10-08-2019, 03:04 AM

Microphone choice & placement is crucial for the sound which gets onto a recording. A good engineer will find the spot where the speaker sounds "best" to his ears and use the microphone which allows for as little equing as possible to fit the "soundpicture" of the recording. Rudy van Gelder was famous for being very cautios about that, taking much efforts to find exactly the "right" spot for the microphone to pick up the sound he desired.

**guavajelly** · 10-08-2019, 05:56 AM

The tracks you mention sound like the typical "archtop into a fender amp" to me. ONE thing you can do on any guitar and any amp to get closer that costs you nothing: Turn down the guitar volume a bit. That will take care of any shrillness and muddyness. For the sounds of Benson and Burrell keep the tone control on 10 when playing an archtop. On a solid body you may want to set the tone to taste.

**guavajelly** · 10-08-2019, 05:58 AM

I forgot: and get some flatwound strings. ;-)

**Jimmy Mack** · 10-08-2019, 05:00 PM

I don't want to pre-judge anything that you are doing, but let me add a few things to consider:

A Les Paul solid body will be much less bassy than an arch top guitar in many cases - why not take the guitar you are used to hearing and that you have experience and feel with, to go and try new amps. That would be a more accurate comparison and in my experience more worthwhile/educational.

With my semi hollow guitars with P90's, I leave the guitar's tone on 10, but when I turn the volume pot down to say 7, I get a much different tone - still clear and articulate, but less harsh, more woody, and very pleasant. You can always turn it back up for more power.

In older amps, Alnico magnets often drove the speakers, you won't find many today in amps in the stores - they are much more expensive so manufacturers keep costs down by using ceramic magnet speakers (and not always the best available). A broken in Alnico speaker can be warmer and more pleasant to some ears. I have 1960 Jensen Alnico speaker that is a joy to listen for its beautiful attack and warmth while not being bassy. Players today have hundreds of options for changing how their gear can sound. It takes time, listening, and a few $$$$. Just cause its a Fender doesn't mean its a great sounding amp.

Best of luck and go try many amps with your regular guitar. Cheers