Cheesy vs natural chorus

[Tal_175]

Reverb will be seen just as cheesy 50 years from now, like the way we see chorus in the 80's. People will wonder how on earth it became an automatic always on thing for most guitarist.
I know people are gonna argue that reverb is "natural". But we are talking about the effect, which is an artificial sound processing.

[John A.]

This is just my opinion, but as someone else said there are three jazz guitarists today who have a more ”organic/natural” chorus sound. They are Bill Frisell, Pat Metheny and John Scofield. And I agree with this statement. Scofield’s playing technique and sound doesn’t sound cheesy at all to my ears. He is musically progressive with deep roots in jazz tradition, directly opposite to being cheesy.

Sco's sound over the last (10? 15? maybe more?) years is pretty different from what it was early on. I'm thinking of older stuff, like, Still Warm, Electric Outlet, Star People, or the first Bass Desires album -- these kind of do have the "cheesy" mono chorus sound. But his use of effects has become much more subtle and/or explicitly not subtle punctuations (e.g., looping or harmonizer). I'd say it's a similar evolution for Frisell.

John

[Jim Soloway]

Reverb will be seen just as cheesy 50 years from now, like the way we see chorus in the 80's. People will wonder how on earth it became an automatic always on thing for most guitarist.
I know people are gonna argue that reverb is "natural". But we are talking about the effect, which is an artificial sound processing.

I think that the victim is more likely to be The Edge-style delay. It's obvious to the ear and it's all over the place in a lot of popular music.

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

Sco's sound over the last (10? 15? maybe more?) years is pretty different from what it was early on. I'm thinking of older stuff, like, Still Warm, Electric Outlet, Star People, or the first Bass Desires album -- these kind of do have the "cheesy" mono chorus sound. But his use of effects has become much more subtle and/or explicitly not subtle punctuations (e.g., looping or harmonizer). I'd say it's a similar evolution for Frisell.

John

I know what you’re meaning. His early albums was much more processed than today, but I still enjoy to listening on them. Through the years he also, like you say, changes the gear setup from time to time. For example, in the beginning he used Sundown amps and also Mesa Boogies (?). Nowadays, Vox AC-30 and the Ibanez guitar (don’t remember the model name) are his main setup. He’s a guitarist with progressive musical concepts that affects his sound forward. With other words he have never stayed in a certain era, always thinking about the future in a musical context. This can also be applied on both Bill Frisell and Pat Metheny too.

Haha, ”Just My Luck” on ”Electric Outlet” is so chorused/processed that it makes me laugh all the time I hear it! Though it’s still a very good album like all the other Scofield productions from the 80’s.

[John A.]

I know what you’re meaning. His early albums was much more processed than today, but I still enjoy to listening on them. Through the years he also, like you say, changes the gear setup from time to time. For example, in the beginning he used Sundown amps and also Mesa Boogies (?). Nowadays, Vox AC-30 and the Ibanez guitar (don’t remember the model name) are his main setup. He’s a guitarist with progressive musical concepts that affects his sound forward. With other words he have never stayed in a certain era, always thinking about the future in a musical context. This can also be applied on both Bill Frisell and Pat Metheny too.

Haha, ”Just My Luck” on ”Electric Outlet” is so chorused/processed that it makes me laugh all the time I hear it! Though it’s still a very good album like all the other Scofield productions from the 80’s.

Sco has a pretty extensive gear listing on his website: Equipment - John Scofield

John

[jzucker]

Really good trio, sounds awesome!

Yes, I agree that your chorus sounds subtle. I also use chorus, but I create it manual with just a MXR Carbon Copy delay pedal. I have set the delay time a little, little, little bit longer to create an ADT sound. When I notice an echo the delay time is too long, but this is of course subjective and up to personal taste. Like many other have said subtle chorus is the best. In this type of trio concept it seems working very well for you.

Thanks, I was originally looking for pitch vibrato but for one reason or another, hated everything I tried. I got the EQD aqueduct and really like the sound of it but it adds a 15ms delay to the signal which gives it a tad bit of that '80s mike stern chorus sound which I didn't want but I really love the wideness of the sonic footprint and haven't been able to find anything better. I usually run in stereo and was sad that it is not available in stereo but I just run it into a hardware 7 and use it's reverb for the stereo effect.

[Average Joe]

I think the difference between Scofield and someone like Mike Stern, whose chorus tone I've always had mixed feelings about, are twofold. First of all, sco tended to keep the shimmery 80s chorus a bit more subtle. He'll sometimes use the faux leslie chorus sound as a special effect, but the always-on style thing was a bit more subtle especially with distortion. It's worth noting that Sco almost always have a bit of distortion going on, whereas Stern tend to turn it on and off. And I think Stern's chorus sound much better with his clean settings. Secondly, they simply play differently. You don't hear Sco do those long sustained notes or bends where you really hear the effect stand out, and a chorus sound is going to sit different with those styles.

And then there's musical context: I love Sco's 80's processed sound, and I doubt an unchorused sound would sound as good in the context of the über 80s sounding Blue Matter band for instance. Listen to the below and tell me that a Jim Hall sound would be better . But he dialed it back for his more straight jazz albums. I hear someone like stern sound much the same regardless of context.

The above is no slight of Stern, who I think is a monster and who's work I love. I'm going to see him live again soon and I'm looking forward to it. But his use of chorus ain't always my cup of tea

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

I think the difference between Scofield and someone like Mike Stern, whose chorus tone I've always had mixed feelings about, are twofold. First of all, sco tended to keep the shimmery 80s chorus a bit more subtle. He'll sometimes use the faux leslie chorus sound as a special effect, but the always-on style thing was a bit more subtle especially with distortion. It's worth noting that Sco almost always have a bit of distortion going on, whereas Stern tend to turn it on and off. And I think Stern's chorus sound much better with his clean settings. Secondly, they simply play differently. You don't hear Sco do those long sustained notes or bends where you really hear the effect stand out, and a chorus sound is going to sit different with those styles.

And then there's musical context: I love Sco's 80's processed sound, and I doubt an unchorused sound would sound as good in the context of the über 80s sounding Blue Matter band for instance. Listen to the below and tell me that a Jim Hall sound would be better . But he dialed it back for his more straight jazz albums. I hear someone like stern sound much the same regardless of context.

The above is no slight of Stern, who I think is a monster and who's work I love. I'm going to see him live again soon and I'm looking forward to it. But his use of chorus ain't always my cup of tea

There are some clips from that era when Scofield’s playing with his Blue Matter Band in Copenhagen, I think it’s from 1987. Yes, his sound is very chorused and it seems like he playing through a Roland JC-120. But on the other hand I agree with you that an unprocessed sound in this type context doesn’t work. The feeling, in terms of joy and musical expression, is way more important.

By the way, I’m a real Jim Hall fan and have heard that he used some chorus and harmonizer pedal during the late part of his career. I haven’t found any clips or recordings where he uses this. Can somebody help me find some clips or recordings where Jim Hall uses his effects pedals?

[Jim Soloway]

This is Jose Macario, a really good local prog etc. guitarist with a chorus demo that he just posted last night. I don't think there's anything cheesy about this.

[Tal_175]

This is not cheesy either:

[Doug B]

I don‘t understand the question either since chorus does not sound natural in the first place.

I think that a better word than "natural" is "more pleasing"

Try listening to or playing a JAM chorus vs a cheaper ordinary chorus like a Boss or TC Electronics. Not too much though!