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Last week I had to perform with our singer in a very small and quiet venue and we had to be all acoustic (also the vocals were unamplified).
I rarely do gigs like this and since my ES-125 is acoustically not loud enough for these gigs I decided to take my old Crafter acoustic flattop; an entry-level dreadnought with cutaway, laminated back and sides but with a solid top.
During preparation the day before I hated the finger-squeeking on the stings so I quickly changed them for my usual Thomastik Infields flatwounds (0.012), which sounded much better to my ears but also less voluminous. I didn't really like the basic sound I was getting, especially on the plain strings, they sounded thin to me and just not very 'jazz-like'. (And the lack of volume made me pluck the strings way harder than I like to do, losing a lot of subtlety.)
The gig went well enough, but it left me thinking that there may be better solutions for a satisfying acoustic sound that stays closer to what I'm used to. I watched quite a few acoustic guitar-tests on YouTube and even a lot of very expensive high-end acoustics just don't do it for me....
Now I am wondering what solution there might be for a good voluminous purely acoustic, jazz-type of sound.
- better/more suitable strings?
- higher end acoustic flattop guitar? If so, what type? Jumbo? Parlor? Dreadnought? Gypsy guitars?
- would acoustic archtops with solid carved tops do better in this situation?
But maybe I am just not an acoustic kind of guy? (In retrospect: if we have to do a gig like this again I would much rather bring my ES-125 with a very small amp, like my AER Alpha for example.)
Here's some audience cell-phone footage of the gig, btw:
Curious to hear your opinions/advises!
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04-04-2019 09:46 AM
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Gypsy guitar, for sure. I love playing straight ahead on mine. Get a short scale D hole, they'll run all flat tops for ya
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Although you dont sound bad at all in that video.
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As for strings, phosphor bronze can be loud, although I much prefer 80/20 tone. As a general rule, in my experience, flattops are significantly louder than archtops and the cheaper ones are much better than they used to be.
In the video, though, it sounds loud enough - although it does seem you're struggling and you must've been tired by the end of the gig. For that type of music, I would go with a nylon guitar, instead of a flattop.
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Nylon is always a good option too, but unless you have nails and some pretty good technique, the quiet thing is an issue...
Sorry for the multiple posts, thoughts coming and going this morning...
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You two sound great!
My vote for doing that gig unamplified would be a nylon string guitar. I added a crossover nylon guitar to my arsenal a few years ago and love it. The radiused fingerboard and narrower neck than classical made the transition easier.
But I wish they’ll let you dial in just a tiny amount of amp—not enough for the audience to notice, but just to fill in some of the low end that large rooms seem to suck out of an acoustic guitar’s tone.
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Thanks guys!
Darn! I hadn't even considered my nylon! I still have my nails (I started as a classical guitarist and that habit never went away) and I have a nice handmade (by one of his students I assume) Contreras...... I will definitely try that next time!
A Gypsy-guitar is something I would like to have anyway, so I'll take that advise as an excuse to investigate further into that direction as well ;-)
We do more and more duo-gigs, performing the songs we normally play with the whole band (bass/drums/guitar/sax) but I usually bring the ES-125. That's also how our songs are born (live we amplify the vocal also of course):
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Dreads typically have a scooped sound -- a fair amount of treble, a lot of bass not much mids. Gibson dreads tend to be a little more mid range-y than Martins (most dreads are copies of Martin designs), so you could try a couple and see if they do anything for you. But unamplified dreads are basically not the best tool for what you're talking about. I've used a soundhole magnetic pickup in my Gibson dread, and it's borderline arcthop-ish.
Originally Posted by Little Jay
- You can tweak acoustic sound a bit with different strings, but that will only help the wound strings. IME, D'Addario PB and Martin Marquis strings tend to exaggerate that scooped dread character and Pearse and DR PB attenuate it a little bit, but it's not a big difference, and disappears after the strings have been played in a bit. Martin Monel strings might be worth a shot. Those are the ones I've tried. Originally Posted by Little Jay
- IMO, smaller bodied guitars are better than dreads and jumbos for jazz. "Orchestra" models (e.g., Martin 00 or 000 guitars and copies) are good. From the guitars I've tried, "Grand Orchestra" models like the Taylor 14 series guitars are probably the most arctop-like of the flattops. There's an all-Mahogany Eastman copy of a Taylor 14 style that's very even sounding and super loud. [I can't speak to gypsy style guitars.]
- Check out some Eastman carved tops (with or without floating pickups). They have a big acoustic sound.
I have a Godin Kingpin (similar to an ES-125), and that has basically become my acoustic guitar (with a small amp, when needed). Originally Posted by Little Jay
That actually sounds really good. But phone audio tends to be very compressed, so it might not have sounded like that in the room. Originally Posted by Little Jay
John
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I had an old Crafter and couldn't do anything with it
so if you sound that good with it you can pretty much choose anything for such gigs. Personally I really like how a good acoustic sounds for vocal duets. Classical, Gypsy, it's a matter of taste. But don't disregard your cheaper crafter if it feels right. Maybe try it with acoustic strings to see how you like the snap.
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Thanks! Originally Posted by KirkP
A radiused fingerboard would make me feel more comfortable I guess, I have become a bit estranged for the flat classical fretboard. Originally Posted by KirkP
That would also solve a lot! Originally Posted by KirkP
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Like John A says, a smaller body is more suitable for this. Those dreadnoughts are king of the hill for strumming, leaving that midrange and note definition for others
I have a little 12 fret Taylor Grand Concert thingy that is way louder and fuller than my dreadnoughts, in every range but the very bottom.
That said, I'd also go for nylon in this setting
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I love jazz on a steel string flat top. The trade off in choosing a guitar is volume vs tone. Dreadnoughts have all the volume, but the small parlor guitars have a more balanced tone. For me personally, I'd like to have a small amp so that I could play with a light touch. My favorite sound is light fingerstyle and it's pretty quiet. A little battery powered amp like a Roland Microcube or the Yamaha THR10 would be plenty. Then you don't have to rely on your fingers to push the volume.
Also, an acoustic archtop like an L-7 would be great for this. But I'd want an amp for that too.
On the topic of strings, have you tried some coated acoustic strings for reduced noise? Elixirs work great for this, but they aren't my favorite. I'm a big fan of D'addario EXPs and Cleartones.
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Have you tried takeing the pick guard off to open up the f hole which will increase the volume.
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Jax, is it a pretty noticeable difference?
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yes It makes enough diffrence. Try it and see. you can also move your right arm more away from the upper f hole But that will take time to getting use to
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Bah, Humbug!
Sheesh, if Dante was still around, he'd add a tenth circle of Hell to his Inferno to which to consign those who do not recommend a proper acoustic archtop guitar (with a floating pickup) for vocal accompaniment.Last edited by Hammertone; 04-04-2019 at 04:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
Bah, Humbug!
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Don't know about optimal, but for that sort of music a decent quality OM size flat top will work well. Used Martin's are nice. Eastman flat tops sound good for their price range. Would go with solid wood models. I like the even tension acoustic strings.
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From my ES-125 you mean? Well, that’s a different story: my ES-125 is missing its bracing and I put a sound post to support the top and prevent it from collapsing (works very well btw). The sound post does reduce acoustic volume already. Removing the pick guard is not going to make enough of a difference. Originally Posted by JaxJaxon
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I see you are in Europe. Nothing wrong with a nice American-made acoustic archtop, but fabulous carved German-made acoustic archtop guitars with floaters can be found quite easily in Europe.
Last edited by Hammertone; 04-04-2019 at 07:25 PM.
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True that! I’m a bit of a Framus fan myself, I have 3: a 5/1 Amateur, a ‘78 Caravelle thinline and a ‘76 Missouri. Bought them when they were dead cheap overhere. Originally Posted by Hammertone
I see you are in Europe. Nothing wrong with a nice American-made acoustic archtop, but fabulous German-made acoustic archtop guitars with floaters can be found quite easily in Europe.
I do even have this Czech-made laminated archtop with a floater, a Furch G-1:
I might try to set that up for acoustic gigs. I would have to remove the sound post I installed for electric playing (no big deal) and try it out with acoustic strings - preferably coated ones to keep the finger noise down.
Thanks everyone, you’ve given me a lot of food for thought!Last edited by Little Jay; 04-04-2019 at 06:08 PM.
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Sell them all and get a nice Hoyer Special. Or Solist. Or Roger. Originally Posted by Little Jay
With a floating pickup.
;^)Last edited by Hammertone; 04-04-2019 at 07:24 PM.
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I'd be on Hammertone's idea, but I'm weird.
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Or how about one of these? That guitar can fill a room.
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Jasper,
A lot of advice has been presented and most of it is valid. Having done a lot of paid all acoustic gigs over the years, here are my thoughts:
Gypsy guitars are the loudest, but many are harsh and lack enough bass response to back up a singer without a bass player. D-Holes are usually better (but not always) for this application. Choose wisely. Holland has many fine luthiers who make these guitars.
Classicals, if concert quality (in other words having sufficient volume) can work great. and they can be played with both fingers or plectrum contrary to the advice of some.
Flattops are rarely loud enough for this application, but loud examples do exist. Again, choose wisely.
Archtops can work. but most modern acoustic archtops are built to be amplified. Older examples were meant to be played acoustically, but like Gypsy guitars, many lack enough bass response for your application. Yep, you will need to choose wisely!
Good luck in your search! And your duo sounds great!
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