Guitar Cables - Influence on Guitar Sound

[nado64]

Yesterday, I has gone to play with an organist friend.
He has received an old leslie 122 cabinet.

So, he doesn't use anymore his jack-jack cables (vovox).
After one hour to jam with my cable, I try one of his cable.
Wow ! The sound is so much better !!
It's noiseless, with an amazing definition.

Someone has done the same experience?

EDIT (12/09/2009) : for clearing the major ideas, I've did a synthese.

The cables used by the members, :

Yes. I replaced my cables with Klotz TM Stevens signature "Funkmaster" cables recently - as recommended on the Sadowsky website - and am getting an audibly clearer sound. Reasonably affordable in the EU (where they are made I assume).

[..]I use vovox cables myself. Love 'em. Outstanding quality.[..]

bought some george L cable and parts, long time ago. last forever. nice features. i'd buy em again, but i don't think they'll ever fail.

[..]I read a thread on a french forum, where a serious man has tested a lot of cables. His favorite one is the Klotz Lagrange.[..]

If the high-end cables are too expensive for you,

Gee, only $190 USD for a 20' guitar cable! I bet there are some poor saps buying those to use with $150 guitars, thinking it will make all the difference.

But how to choose your cable ?

The choice by the pratic :

[..]If you're interested in the cable, you need to try it yourself. If you don't hear a difference or don't like it for whatever reason, don't buy it. [..]

The choice by the theory :

[..]There are ONLY four properties that affect the performance of any coaxial cable, whether it is used at 1,000 Hz (guitar) or 40,000,000,000 Hz (microwave radio links, satellite communications). The properties are:
- Conductor loss (center conductor and outer conductor)
- Dielectric loss (insulation between center conductor and outer conductor)
- Characteristic impedance (capacitance and inductance per unit length, determined by the ratio of the outer conductor over the inner conductor and the dielectric constant of the insulation)
- Mechanical construction of the cable[..]

[..]There's a resonant peak, typically in the 2 to 3 KHz range, formed by all those components. If you keep everything the same but change the cable, you'll change the resonant peak. This is basically a change in EQ. You will hear a difference given different cables.
To be clear about this: the difference has nothing to do with the quality of the cable. It doesn't matter whether you paid $5 or $500, two cables having identical capacitance will have the same sound given the same guitar, amp and settings.[..]

[..]but I try to avoid using longer ones. Assuming the same brand/construction, would using a 12', 15', or even 20' cable degrade the signal in comparison[..]

And directionality ? Oops, the post which has started the polemic. Some say it's totally wrong, the others say we think it's true.
Read the other below posts for understanding their arguments.

It's a fact that good cable can make a difference you can hear. It's also interesting to know that the direction you use your cable can make an audible difference. Try it, you might be amazed.

And if you have a "hum" in your amp :

It also helps to make sure that ALL cables are high quality. I purchased an amp a few years ago and was very disappointed that there was a hum that the seller didn't inform me about. Turned out that the external switch for tremolo and reverb had a lower quality cable that was introducing the hum. The seller never used it, only the switches on the cabinet. When I upgraded the cable, the hum went away.

[Bill C]

Yes. I replaced my cables with Klotz TM Stevens signature "Funkmaster" cables recently - as recommended on the Sadowsky website - and am getting an audibly clearer sound. Reasonably affordable in the EU (where they are made I assume).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Yes. I replaced my cables with Klotz TM Stevens signature "Funkmaster" cables recently - as recommended on the Sadowsky website - and am getting an audibly clearer sound. Reasonably affordable in the EU (where they are made I assume).

Klotz is German. Harder to find in North America.

[brad4d8]

It also helps to make sure that ALL cables are high quality. I purchased an amp a few years ago and was very disappointed that there was a hum that the seller didn't inform me about. Turned out that the external switch for tremolo and reverb had a lower quality cable that was introducing the hum. The seller never used it, only the switches on the cabinet. When I upgraded the cable, the hum went away.
Brad

[cosmic gumbo]

It's a fact that good cable can make a difference you can hear. It's also interesting to know that the direction you use your cable can make an audible difference. Try it, you might be amazed.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

The received wisdom is to use as short a cable as possible. But then there was the Blues guitarist Albert Collins who had a cable that must have been 100 feet long. He would walk in the audience during a solo. Once he left the building, still soloing, and came back a few minutes later. Soon afterward, a pizza was delivered to him (which he ate while soloing one-handed!). He had crossed an alley and ordered the pizza on his stroll.

[randyc]

It's a fact that good cable can make a difference you can hear. It's also interesting to know that the direction you use your cable can make an audible difference. Try it, you might be amazed.

Unless the cable is defective, it is a "reciprocal network" and will have the same performance regardless of the orientation. Sorry .. turn it end-for-end, there won't be any difference.

Regarding the quality of cables, there are very poorly constructed ones that have inadequate shielding and then there are all of the rest of them. There's no measurable difference in performance between any decent quality cables of the same length, provided that the characteristic impedance is the same.

Speaking in generalities, cables with lower characteristic impedance are better shielded than those with high characteristic impedance BUT have more capacitance. If the cable is a long one, the higher capacitance will roll off some of the higher frequency components. None of this is really very important to a guitarist provided the length is not excessive. (Even long lengths can be compensated adequately using amplifier EQ.)

Provided that the shielding is adequate, the rest of the specifications are not as important as workmanship. Stress relief at the plugs at each end, good solid connections at the solder joints, these are the items that concern me the most.

This has been discussed previously and I thought that cable witchcraft had been sorted out (Usually these discussions seem to occur on non-jazz forums.)

cheers,
randyc

[Drifter]

As usual, an engineers ears get orders from the brain not to listen but to know. No, just a joke. But it's tiresome. This discussion has been repeated too often. The outcome is always the same: Some people hear the difference, some know there isn't one. It's a neverending war. Let's not continue it here.

I use vovox cables myself. Love 'em. Outstanding quality.

Very nice story about Albert Collins ordering pizza. I've seen him once or twice and I don't doubt it for a second. Too bad he wasn't hungry during the concerts I attended.

[randyc]

As usual, an engineers ears get orders from the brain not to listen but to know. No, just a joke. But it's tiresome.

Drifter, I think that you have the positions reversed. Many people believe in witchcraft or by locating a drinking well with a divining rod despite the message from their brain that tells them not to "listen". But they "know" that what they believe is true, they have "faith".

I test the "truth" of statements like these by comparing them with education, personal knowledge, experience or MEASUREMENTS - I take nothing on "faith"!

If you prefer to believe in the advertising of folks like "Monster Cables", feel free to do so. Equally, I feel free to point out false, misleading information like this at every opportunity. If you find this tiresome, I'd suggest that you skip every post with my name attached to it.

I stated w-a-a-y back, when I joined the forum, that this was one of my prime motivations, to be a critic of practices that I find deceitful. As a guitarist, age and disease have eroded my skills so I haven't much to contribute to the forum from that viewpoint.

But I do have a lot of musical experience; combining that with my engineering background and my background as a successful business owner, I bring a lot to the table that some musicians lack: common sense.

I'm easy to get along with - but I have no patience for opinions that seem to be based on "spiritualism" rather than physics. There are "opinions" and there are "facts". The difference between the two should be obvious but just in case: facts are provable.

randyc

PS: opinions that offer no basis in fact can universally be altered by double-blind testing

[nado64]

[..]Sorry .. turn it end-for-end, there won't be any difference.[..]

I think there are a confusion because some cables are directionnals.

On the vovox website:
"Directionality
All VOVOX sound conductors are directional. Depending on which end is used as ‘input’ or ‘output’ the sound transmission properties are different. An optimal result is only possible when the correct connection is used:
Connect the end of the sound conductor marked with the VOVOX® label to the signal receiver.
In case of wrong alignment, VOVOX sound conductors will work properly, and there will be no damage to the connected equipment. But to optimize the cable’s use, follow the directions above."

"How is it possible to explain the effect of directionality of VOVOX sound conductors?
In general, metals are crystals. Therefore, they exhibit different properties and values when measured in different directions.
VOVOX sound conductors are based on solid core conductors, which means they are made of single wires and not of many small stranded wires. The production of stranded wires consists of many processing steps, resulting in a large probability that not all filaments will have the same direction. Directional properties thus cancel each other out. In the case of VOVOX sound conductors this will not happen."

[Tom Karol]

Does size matter? Wait! I mean, I use 6' cables when I can and 10' cables when necessary, but I try to avoid using longer ones. Assuming the same brand/construction, would using a 12', 15', or even 20' cable degrade the signal in comparison?

[GodinFan]

Gee, only $190 USD for a 20' guitar cable! I bet there are some poor saps buying those to use with $150 guitars, thinking it will make all the difference.

[randyc]

Drifter, thanks for your response. For reasons that I don't want to detail, it's just not real easy for me to let pass the digressions of Madison Avenue (and their European and Asian counterparts). I'm angry at some things that are happening and I can't do anything about them.

So I focus on things that I CAN do something about and topics that are commonly accepted but genuinely wrong. I pick musicians to discuss these things with - not just here but in other forums - because I find that musicians are more accepting of distortions than most people. As artists, we are sometimes too tactful and sensitive ... we lack those characteristics that allow the average person to say "prove it - I don't believe you".

I've been reading the Vovox ad copy this morning, please go on to another topic if you are incurious at this point. I'll post this material separately.

cheers,
randyc

[TieDyedDevil]

It's true that a cable has no sound of its own.

However, cables do affect the sound of your guitar for a very simple reason: they are a significant component in the circuit composed of the inductance (and stray capacitance) of the pickup, the capacitance of the cable, and the resistance of the volume pot and the amp's input circuit.

There's a resonant peak, typically in the 2 to 3 KHz range, formed by all those components. If you keep everything the same but change the cable, you'll change the resonant peak. This is basically a change in EQ. You will hear a difference given different cables.

To be clear about this: the difference has nothing to do with the quality of the cable. It doesn't matter whether you paid $5 or $500, two cables having identical capacitance will have the same sound given the same guitar, amp and settings.

Something else you need to know is that the length of a cable affects its capacitance. If you use the same wire in two cables, the one with the longer wire will have a higher capacitance.

I was skeptical for a long time about the ability of small differences in cable capacitance to cause a noticeable change in the tone of your rig. I'm now convinced that, due to the complex nature of the guitar's tone, we can in fact hear the effect of small changes in EQ.

[lpdeluxe]

Well, while I was typing, Randy was preparing his bunker-buster, so I've edited it all out. Mr C said it all better.

As to those who hear differences: every time I plug my 335 into my amp, it sounds different to me. Over the years, I have learned to trust that the sound will work for me, but I could not describe that sound, or tell you with any certainty as to whether it is exactly the sound I found useful last time. I'm spent my life pondering this, and I have concluded that, well, it's gonna happen. One week end I'll plug my '51 Precision reissue into a friend's B15N, and I'll be able to take the whole band for rides around the block on my bass lines. Another week, I'll plug the same bass into the same amp, and everybody has to walk.

Why is that? I dunno. Maybe a difference in temperature, or humidity (we experience extremes of both here in East Texas) or did I have a nip of white wine one week and red the next?

All I know, is that the machinery doesn't change, and can't, and won't. So it's almost certainly my ears, my perception, and the complex of stimulae around me (sound included) that my poor overworked brain is trying to make sense of, on the fly.

[musicalbodger]

Many people believe in witchcraft or by locating a drinking well with a divining rod

Hi RandyC, can't disagree with anything you said but you're on shaky ground when it comes to water and divining. We may not yet be clever enough to work out how this works but some people are able to divine the presence of water. My wife is one. I have no skill in this field but I have held one side of a Y-shaped hazel stick whilst she held the other and when that stick started to turn upwards there is no way I could stop it. She can trace the line a water pipe in the ground using this method. In this part of the world most wells and boreholes are sited using a combination of geological maps and divining.

[TieDyedDevil]

If you're interested in the cable, you need to try it yourself. If you don't hear a difference or don't like it for whatever reason, don't buy it. Can it get any simpler? This time I really felt you've wasted your precious energy. Hope it didn't keep you from driving...

This really gets into the psychology of marketing and consumption. I'm all for shedding as much light as possible onto subjects which have simple answers that have been obfuscated by marketers and advertisers.

The "you won't know until you try it" response is basically a dare. The marketers and advertisers know that there's no justifiable difference; they don't care. All they really need is for you to try their product, justify the results to yourself and become loyal to the brand.

[randyc]

The "you won't know until you try it" response is basically a dare. The marketers and advertisers know that there's no justifiable difference; they don't care. All they really need is for you to try their product, justify the results to yourself and become loyal to the brand.

So true, so true and leading nicely into a point that I make frequently (perhaps too frequently). The purchaser automatically becomes staunch defender of the product because to do otherwise would point out his bad decision.

randyc

[Drifter]

Seems to be a hell of an urge to prove it to the world. Without ever having tried a Vovox. Now who's believing? And, once again, making these beliefs the one and only truth with everything else being total rubbish and stupidity. Oh well, I didn't expect it to end otherwise.

[randyc]

Seems to be a hell of an urge to prove it to the world. Without ever having tried a Vovox. Now who's believing? And, once again, making these beliefs the one and only truth with everything else being total rubbish and stupidity. Oh well, I didn't expect it to end otherwise.

Should those of us who disagree with the advertising then apologize to "believers" simply because there are subjects about which we are more knowledgable? Not meaning to sound patronizing, disrespectful or supercilious but that's a double-edged blade, my friend. Doubtless you are my intellectual superior in many matters but I don't think this particular example is one of them.

There's little incentive for ME to try a product that employs such deceptive verbiage. The entire campaign is focused on impressing those who have little knowledge of the subject - NO offense intended. As I stated yesterday, there's a definable difference between "fact" and "opinion".

Show me measured data that supports the superiority of "your" product and I'll change my tune quicker than a Tennessee fiddler ! AND you'll get an apology, for whatever that's worth

cheers,
randyc

[Stringbean]

bought some george L cable and parts, long time ago. last forever. nice features. i'd buy em again, but i don't think they'll ever fail.

[nado64]

I like your posts Randy. They help this forum to be better.

I confess I'm not convinced by the theorical explanation about directionality.

Well, first, metals do NOT exhibit different electrical properties and values

For being sure of the influence or the "no" influence, I think we need a pratical experience.
Thus, if someone has a vovox cable, can he give us his feeling when he uses the vovox cable upside ?

However, I think directionality is just a little detail. And I don't think it's a guarantee of quality.
As Randy says, I think the most important is "Conductor loss, Dielectric loss, Characteristic impedance, Mechanical construction of the cable". And the jack ends too.

I read a thread on a french forum, where a serious man has tested a lot of cables. His favorite one is the Klotz Lagrange (he plays pop rock).

[JohnRosett]

I've been playing guitar for 40 years and now I find out that it's my CABLE'S fault that I sound like crap?!?!?!?

[randyc]

... But there's more to it. At least in my brain. And I don't need a scientific confirmation for every sonic experience I have. I still trust my ears. Of course that's opinion, not fact....Your facts are flawed, too because they're not complete. It may be correct what you say about the materials used and their electrical attributes, but as long as you don't consider the human factor you're leaving out the most important factor of all. Thinking that if you cannot measure sonic differences technically means that the human hearing as a signal processor and the human brain as a signal interpreter cannot either, again is opinion..

By your statement, it's not possible for my facts to be "flawed". If you had it your way, my facts would include unproven, non-factual information. If I allow one flaw to develop in my accumulation of fact, then the fact is totally flawed and becomes = unproven opinion.

Hmmm, more Crystal, New Age, Spiritual, "dogmatic" obfuscation. You talk about "ears" as if they were a reliable, dependable, precision measuring instrument. You discuss "brains" as if they were a functional, accurate microprocessor that, given the same information, makes the same decision every time. The human ear is a poor receptor, varying with gender and age dramatically, the human brain is a poor processor, varying with age and individual, education and experience ... unhappily they are the only ones we have to work with if we happen to be AMISH !(And no offense to, ha-ha, any Amish that might be reading this on their computer while strumming their electric guitar.)

I'm sorry that I'm older and more experienced than you are. I'm SORRY that I've been educated/trained to know more about these things than you know. I'm sorry that I have a well-equipped electronic laboratory in which to perform measurements and experiments of this nature, I'm sorry that I have a machine shop to manufacture the parts that enable me to make these precision measurements. I'm sorry that I'm an atheist and take nothing on "faith". I'm sorry that I test a premise before I accept it as fact. I'm sorry that the human ear and the human brain are so erratic and vary so much with age but I didn't make them that way. I'm sorry that people like me ever decided to test hearing and provide us with the information about how bad my (and your) ears are. I'm sorry that you weren't born a century ago and I wasn't born a century ahead.

Why not stop trying to make this an emotional argument and join the many of us who live in the the twenty-first century, acknowledging the fact that you lack information on many levels of this subject and drop your blind, defensive loyalty to this specific brand because of its "crystalline structure" (or whatever impulse stimulated your brain to spend a lot of money on this artifact that was doubtless designed as an intelligence test as well as money maker).

Oh, here's a better idea that requires no work from either of us: How about you staying just as you are and being the keeper of "faith-based" opinion. I'll stay just as I am am and be the keeper of "fact-based" opinion. Is that agreeable or do we have to continue this childish discussion? If you haven't already inferred, I'm getting real tired of the touchy-feely responses. Your responses have been input to my microprocessor which has processed them and found them to be "incomplete or missing data".

Now this - my above rudeness - I DO genuinely apologize for. I'm sorry. But the limits of my patience have been tried and found wanting. Enjoy your expensive cable, when it breaks, let's hope that the company will still be around to fix it.

[randyc]

I like your posts Randy. They help this forum to be better.

I confess I'm not convinced by the theorical explanation about directionality.


For being sure of the influence or the "no" influence, I think we need a pratical experience.
Thus, if someone has a vovox cable, can he give us his feeling when he uses the vovox cable upside ?

However, I think directionality is just a little detail. And I don't think it's a guarantee of quality.
As Randy says, I think the most important is "Conductor loss, Dielectric loss, Characteristic impedance, Mechanical construction of the cable". And the jack ends too.

I read a thread on a french forum, where a serious man has tested a lot of cables. His favorite one is the Klotz Lagrange (he plays pop rock).

Thank you, nado64. I couldn't make the link work but I'll do a search for that cable later perhaps.

cheers,
randyc

PS: found the website for the cable manufacturer, they provide a lot of information, here's a sample of one of their lower cost bulk cables: http://www.klotz-ais.com/quickorder/...f/AC106__e.pdf