Sustainably and ethically produced guitars

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-11-2019, 04:13 PM

As far as making reasonable, sustainable guitars, laminates use very little non-renewable wood. In many cases since it’s sliced radially, it doesn’t depend upon thick, old-growth lumbar.

Carbon fiber uses no wood. Currently most carbon fiber is made from petrochemicals, but plant nitrocellulose can be used in a sustainable fashion.

Carbon Fiber Made From Plants Instead of Petroleum – Nexus Media

Personally I am alright with non-wood fingerboards. Or, there are many non-threatened woods that can be used.

So there are a lot of options here involving non-wood products, as well as easily sourced and sustainable woods.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-11-2019, 04:14 PM

By the way, I read an article not too long ago that many pension fund holders were tricked into investing in wood farms in the Southeast as a good investment strategy. (I remember driving in North Georgia a few years back and marveling at all the pine trees marked off for harvesting.) Now lumber prices are down, and this strategy has been a financial disaster. But...why couldn’t that wood be used for guitar parts? Maybe not top wood, but as part of a laminate? Even a laminated neck ala Martin?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-11-2019, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Plastic Maccaferri

At least it's recyclable.

**joe2758** · 03-11-2019, 04:32 PM

didnt bird play a plastic sax fora bit?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-11-2019, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

didnt bird play a plastic sax fora bit?

Ornette, too.

**christianm77** · 03-11-2019, 05:35 PM

Ethics?

When somebody buys a cheap guitar they should pay some mind to why it’s cheap. Whenever I watch a YouTube video where someone enthuses about the high quality of bargain basement strat or something, I think hmmm.

Apart from the fact that I spent some years playing cheap guitars.

But that’s a separate issue to timber. Basically every guitar is going to have some ethical issues with its supply chain if it uses tropical woods in its construction. This was always true...

I like the Godin commitment to using local timber. I think guitarists are obsessed with recreating the past, but that’s not healthy for music or instrument design. CITES has put the kibosh on that to some extent, and it’s no bad thing imo.

Anyway I’m writing this on an iPhone so I’m certainly not claiming moral superiority over anyone. There are systemic ethical problems with globalised supply chains wherever guitars are put together.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-11-2019, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Ethics?

When somebody buys a cheap guitar they should pay some mind to why it’s cheap. Whenever I watch a YouTube video where someone enthuses about the high quality of bargain basement strat or something, I think hmmm.

Apart from the fact that I spent some years playing cheap guitars.

But that’s a separate issue to timber. Basically every guitar is going to have some ethical issues with its supply chain if it uses tropical woods in its construction. This was always true...

I like the Godin commitment to using local timber. I think guitarists are obsessed with recreating the past, but that’s not healthy for music or instrument design. CITES has put the kibosh on that to some extent, and it’s no bad thing imo.

Anyway I’m writing this on an iPhone so I’m certainly not claiming moral superiority over anyone. There are systemic ethical problems with globalised supply chains wherever guitars are put together.

Telecasters most commonly are a Maple neck on a Ash or Alder body.

**christianm77** · 03-11-2019, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Telecasters most commonly are a Maple neck on a Ash or Alder body.

I do like one with a rosewood fingerboard though. I'm sorry. I'm bad. Subjectively I feel it tames the top end. I know this is probably selection bias in reality.

Mind you my main tele atm is a maple neck one.

**christianm77** · 03-11-2019, 05:49 PM

Sorry - I should I say, I see your point that telecasters are the solution to every known problem, and I wholeheartedly endorse it.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-11-2019, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I do like one with a rosewood fingerboard though. I'm sorry. I'm bad. Subjectively I feel it tames the top end. I know this is probably selection bias in reality.

Mind you my main tele atm is a maple neck one.

I can't throw the first stone, my T-style has an ebony 'board. I'd be willing to try torrefied maple or Richlite.

**Drumbler** · 03-11-2019, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by ccroft

For those interested in understanding more about sustainable forestry and ebony in particular, I recommend clicking on the links Gitfiddler gave us above. Ebony project in particular. (I personally prefer ebony with a bit of color and character)

In a addition to what Cunamara wrote I'd like to point out that under-developed countries don't have the same work-place safety and environmental protections that manufacturers in first world companies are faced with. This further lowers cost of doing business there, and raises ethical questions for consumers in clean and safe countries who profit by other's unfortunate births.

Some years ago I saw a documentary about ebony. They showed some workers in an African village cutting ebony into billets. I've been working with table saws since I was about 10, but what I saw was truly hair-raising. I won't bore you with the details. I can say without doubt that our shop would be shut down immediately if we asked our guys to do what they were doing with that machinery. I wonder how many workers have been maimed there. Guys who couldn't possibly play a guitar or a clarinet if we gave them one.

I bet Grez runs a safe shop!

Check out the videos of workers in India handling asbestos. Zero protective equipment.

Life is cheap there.

Go back 100 years in the USA and it was the same. All those safety, environmental regs., taxes, not too mention wages in effect now are why manufacturing has all but disappeared in the USA.

The Empire State Building was built in roughly 13 months, completed in 1931. Think about it. How long would it take today with all the regs.?

**Jazzstdnt** · 03-12-2019, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Check out the videos of workers in India handling asbestos. Zero protective equipment.

Life is cheap there.

Go back 100 years in the USA and it was the same. All those safety, environmental regs., taxes, not too mention wages in effect now are why manufacturing has all but disappeared in the USA.

The Empire State Building was built in roughly 13 months, completed in 1931. Think about it. How long would it take today with all the regs.?

Heck if I know, but a lot longer than that of course. Cheers.

Building One World Trade Center: 11 years in under two minutes – video | US news | The Guardian

**JGinNJ** · 03-12-2019, 01:49 PM

C.F. Martin had a "sustainable wood" model a few years ago, I think they discontinued it, though. It was made with USA grown cherry, among other woods. I tried one, it was a nice guitar but had a different, brighter sound than the usual Martin tone.

**Tal_175** · 03-12-2019, 04:34 PM

I'm all for vegan guitars. No animal based glues. Also if it's what I think it is, no gut strings. No leather straps. I'd like to see more vegan guitar stores

PS. I'm in part serious.

**Tal_175** · 03-12-2019, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

didnt bird play a plastic sax fora bit?

Yes those are the Tele's of the saxophone world

**Gobi34** · 03-12-2019, 04:56 PM

could the resulting long-necked pan be used to fry unclaimed fish or heretics ?

**Cunamara** · 03-13-2019, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

Go back 100 years in the USA and it was the same. All those safety, environmental regs., taxes, not too mention wages in effect now are why manufacturing has all but disappeared in the USA.

No. The regs aren't the problem so much as the intense drive to greed and the singleminded goal of the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few at the expense of the many.

For the love of money is the root of all evil.
1 Timothy 6:10

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25

Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.
Matthew 45:25

You cannot serve both God and Mammon.
Matthew 6:24

**Jazzstdnt** · 03-13-2019, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

No. The regs aren't the problem so much as the intense drive to greed and the singleminded goal of the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few at the expense of the many.

For the love of money is the root of all evil.
1 Timothy 6:10

It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25

Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.
Matthew 45:25

You cannot serve both God and Mammon.
Matthew 6:24

Well that's a bit of an over-reaction.

As a professional project manager and general manager I can say for certain that I would not assign any critical path tasks to you. Probably wouldn't assign any project tasks to you.

Finishing a project on time, within budget, and with the required quality and features is as tough a professional endeavor as any. It's not for the meek, and it's not for divas or drama queens either.

Maybe that's why Berklee and other schools now have a course on project management for musicians. Needed.

**Gobi34** · 03-13-2019, 02:49 PM

And if budget considerations impose that the workforce is payed 1$ a day ?

**339 in june** · 03-13-2019, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gobi34

And if budget considerations impose that the workforce is payed 1$ a day ?

One answer : Outsource !

**Drumbler** · 03-13-2019, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gobi34

And if budget considerations impose that the workforce is payed 1$ a day ?

That's just silly.

Supply and demand determines wages just like any other component in a product or service.

Budget considerations may desire $1 wages but you will only be able to hire people who feel that is a fair trade for their time/.

**christianm77** · 03-14-2019, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

That's just silly.

Supply and demand determines wages just like any other component in a product or service.

Budget considerations may desire $1 wages but you will only be able to hire people who feel that is a fair trade for their time/.

You're so funny ;-)

**John A.** · 03-14-2019, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Drumbler

That's just silly.

Supply and demand determines wages just like any other component in a product or service.

Budget considerations may desire $1 wages but you will only be able to hire people who feel that is a fair trade for their time/.

Right, because there are no constraints on wages other than the invisible hand ...

Oy.

John

**Jazzstdnt** · 03-14-2019, 03:24 PM

I can believe $1 daily wage in China and a few other places in Asia and Africa - but not for professional white collar work. Regardless, I don't do business with them.

More like India, and at $30.000 per hour, but I don't know how much of that goes to the individual, less than half I'll bet. So... maybe it's more like $100.00 per day.

Even with that, I'll tell anyone that I don't like the outsourcing of American jobs in the slightest, but nobody asked me.

**christianm77** · 03-14-2019, 05:40 PM

It's a complicated situation (!) - suffice to say I think the dry economic answer and the human aspect of what these answers mean are different.

Presenting something drily does not make it an objective truth uncoloured by ideology, but it's a good way of pretending that it is. But that's one for another day.