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My understanding is EVO has a fair bit of copper in it. Have you ever seen what salt water does to copper?
To 339: The odd thing is it's the space between the frets that wearing. 5 spaces with 6 string.
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02-21-2019 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ccroft
Bronze and Brass both have copper in them. I believe brass fails in a saltwater environment when the zinc goes. But bronze does quite well in saltwater.
I think that EVO is copper and tin (so bronze) with some iron and titanium in there as well.
EDIT: - just checked and EVO seems to be CuSn15Fe1Ti0.1 - so lots of copper just like Bronze, Brass, and “Nickel Silver”.
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I'm reading that EVO has a LOT more copper than 'Nickel Silver'. It's where the gold color comes from. So maybe it corrodes more for some folks with a particular type of sweat.
And there's no zincs like on a boat. So maybe its electrolytic: nickel strings, salty high PH water and copper in the frets. Maybe copper is being leached from the frets and deposited on the strings. Maybe it doesn't happen as much under the strings 'cause there's less electrolyte there. Or something.... maybe poor ground comes into play....
When the zincs go on a boat the other stuff fails due to electrolysis. They're 'sacrificial'. They do all the electric stuff while they're viable. Or something...
In any case, there's a good chance that nickel wire could last somewhat longer for some very rare players.
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Well yes if we commonly think of fret wire as 18% nickel, then EVO has more copper.
For the rest, I have no idea what may have actually caused the remarkable situation for the OP.
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Me either. We need a scientist. I did read where this same pattern has happened to others.
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Back buzzes occur when one or more nut slots are cut too low and/or when there is no neck relief at all (or worse: the neck bows backwards) - and of course when the fret heights are uneven. With freshly planed and crowned frets, correctly cut nut slots and with a tiny amount of neck relief, back buzzes should not occur - no matter the fret material. Originally Posted by jjang1993
Some decades ago Gibson warned against adjusting the truss rod so the neck is absolutely flat, the reason being exactly the risk of back buzzes. Their advice was to set at least a minute amount of relief so the strings behind the fretted notes stays clear of the frets. This advice is in line with my own experience with many guitars though many years. Yes, in an ideal world, with perfectly cut nut slots and perfectly finished frets, setting the relief all flat should be possible, but we live in the real and unperfect world where the wood in the neck and fretboard will move around a tiny bit with humidity fluctuations and handling/playing the guitar. A bit of relief will provide a tolerance for that imperfection.
OTOH, nut slots which are too high and/or excessive relief causes other problems like stiff action in the lower part of the neck and intonation problems. So it's important to get the nut slots and the relief just right. (forum member PTChristopher - who knows an awful lot about guitar set up and has decades of experience - has written a lot on this earlier).
I too am a little puzzled by this excessive fret wear which leads me to some partly OT thoughts. Are you using more force than needed with your present setup to fret the strings (considering you say you have the action set "very, very low")? If yes, you may consider if you finger strength actually would allow you to raise the action a bit with the benefits it has - cleaner tones with less buzz and slap and a greater dynamic range. A not-so-low action is something most players can easily adapt to unless they have a medical problem like say arthritis. Personally, I don't like a super low action, and players used to very low action and slinky strings use to comment that the action on my guitars (typically with a 13/14-53/56 string set) is stiff. But I acknowledge that this is a matter of personal preference.Last edited by oldane; 02-22-2019 at 08:24 AM.
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Those are the spaces between the strings, I'll bet there's a lot of vibrato involved... Originally Posted by ccroft
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Aha! Good Forensic work ...lol. Originally Posted by Dave70
Those are the spaces between the strings, I'll bet there's a lot of vibrato involved...
Puzzling though - because when they first came out EVO Gold Frets - and long before I was on the Forum or had seen Gypsy Jazz Players on Video ..
I asked a Luthier ( on phone ) who had been an early user of EVO and he said they were holding up much better( than Nickel) even for Gypsy Jazz Players who are brutal on frets.
I said 'you mean the Django type Players are rough on frets ???'
He basically said hell yeah ...
So they should stand up to vibrato too.
Has to be a defective batch of EVO -highly unlikely or some unusual combination of the OPs body chemistry and the strings he uses.
Unfortunately 'Forensic Files' just covers murders and stuff , not important things like frets ....lol.
I suggest the OP Google 'unusual wear with EVO frets ' or ask a Luthier who uses them a lot.
Kiesel ( Carvin ) uses stainless and EVO almost exclusively and a lot of Acoustic Luthiers do too ...it's rarely problematic...
although John Suhr doesn't like them .
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The strings aren't causing wear, it's apparently the fingers, between the strings. The frets are deeply worn between the strings, but the fretboard shows little or none. That's the puzzling thing to me. I've never seen anything like that. It has be be from weird body chemistry, because I can come up with no other explanation. And with body chemistry like that, I would surmise that the same thing will happen with other frets. It's something the OP may have to live with. But it's also possible that regular nickel silver frets won't be affected by his chemistry, because it's a different alloy. The only way to find out is to refret with a different alloy and play for a few years. With that fret geometry, string bending is going to be impossible, if that's an issue. Pulling or pushing the string down into that groove will inevitably cause buzzing or worse. In the meantime, I would not suggest taking any vitamin supplements that have any metal content, especially copper. I suspect you're getting at least the RDA from the frets.
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A couple thoughts:
I have many guitars with 5+ years of play on them with a number of different profiles of Jescar EVO fret wire installed on them. None of them are showing any significant sign of wear. It honestly the wire that I now request on all my guitars. Many experienced luthiers have switched over to using it as well because it seems to possess the best combination of durability, work-ability and tone (between nickel and stainless steel).
The OP likely is experiencing an uncommon special cause underpinning his wear situation (e.g. heavy fretting force, bends, vibrato or body chemistry) to cause that extent of wear. OR is it possible the fret wire is not from Jescar and was counterfeit (unlikely, I know but in today's world, I never know)?
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A question to the OP --
Do you own other guitars, and if so what is going on with their frets?
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Originally Posted by Longways to Go
What a question ! In this forum ?
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Some people are funds limited, and some are naturally resistant to GAS. Surprisingly, there are people in the world who own only one guitar. Admittedly, most of them don't frequent this forum, but I'm sure there are a few.
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That is the weirdest thing I've ever seen... until I remembered a professional musician friend who had his guitars re-fretted every couple of years, and he gigs with three Martin D28's! It turns out his also seem to wear in between the strings.
I don't know if stainless is your answer, but it seems likely it is some strange body chemistry thing. I do like EVO frets because they generally wear longer than nickel. But something in your body chemistry seems to be really reacting to these frets. If you don't have trouble with nickel, have that guitar re-fretted with that. Or try stainless. Don't worry about the tone mumbo jumbo. I doubt blindfolded anyone could actually tell. Even if they could, you need a guitar with frets. If your body chemistry demands stainless or nothing, get stainless.
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I came across this because I also found my EVO frets suffering the same symptoms after a few years and looking exactly like this picture. After figuring out what was wrong I felt I should shed some light on the mystery here since the OP never responded and deleted his/her post. Here's the explanation: Originally Posted by 339 in june
It's not wear - just discolouration/tarnish. The 1-5 numbered spots are the areas between the strings which are in contact with the fingers (not "protected" by the strings) so contaminants from the skin affect the fret alloy far more in those areas. The photo captures it very well - it looks just like that in real life - it's like an optical illusion - I think the gold colour of the frets exaggerates what would be barely visible on nickel-steel frets which in my experience also tarnish similarly.
A few minutes of polishing and my EVO frets were back to looking like new - no wear whatsoever thankfully.
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curious question GGBB: since you have first (left?) hand experience in this phenom… Originally Posted by GGBB
Did your guitar have a timber only tailpiece? Ie. grounding through the strings by touching the strings? Or a poor ground elsewhere? These patterns remind me of electrolysis induced corrosion. A micro version of edm machining?
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I'm afraid it has none of the above I think - it's an acoustic guitar. When I took my strings off to have a closer look, I could not feel anything. The frets were as smooth as one would expect - no wear or corrosion of any sort. It was purely discolouration. Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
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well that rules out any influence of pickups, ground loops etc. Phosphor Bronze acoustic strings? If so that would also rule out copper… Originally Posted by GGBB
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Yes - I only use phosphor bronze strings on this guitar. Most of the time coated/treated but not always. Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
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