Proof that guitar tone is in the hands...

[christianm77]

In Jack Zucker's group of august professionals, Pasquale Grasso plays a Trenier, Paul Bollenback plays a Borys, Peter Mazza plays a Gibson Super V, Vic Juris plays a Borys, Peter Bernstein plays a Zeidler, Gilad Hekselman plays a Victor Baker, Mike Moreno plays a Marchione, Mark Whitfield plays a Marchione so, yeah, tone may well be in the fingers but these fellows are not immune to the charms of nice boutique guitars, too, just like the rest of us.

Pasquale put his prize, a Benedetto Pat Martino, that he won in the Wes Montgomery Competition up for sale as soon as he got it so even Pasquale recognises tone is not always in the fingers but in the guitar, too, just like the rest of us lesser mortals. The Benedetto Pat Martino was not his tone.

Ulf Wakenius may well tear it up with that Aria but he won't enjoy it very much if that is what he is restricted to play for the rest of his life. Isn't Ulf playing a Westville guitar now?

I am not saying that the Aria is not a good guitar but a nicer guitar is a nicer guitar and nobody is immune to the charms of a nicer anything.

Well I have it from Peter B that his guitar completely changed the way he hears chords.... He was playing a ES175 before, so not exactly a cheap guitar, but the Zeidler obviously elevated his playing for him. I mean he sounds amazing on any guitar to my ears, but that guitar clearly has a fantastic sound. I really like that half acoustic sound he gets on quieter gigs.

He also mentioned he used to own an L5 that he thought was quite a bad guitar. I think he sold it to finance the Zeidler? Sometimes expensive guitars can not be .... the right one.

I mean that's a thing right?

OTOH, if your sound is mostly on the amp, a lot of the stuff that takes the real time and money in luthiery becomes less critical.

But yeah, different players have different priorities. I mean Mike Stern has no shortage of nice guitars, but he plays the Yamaha because that's HIS voice... Adam Rogers seems to go through phases on the other hand (and has lots of nice guitars)

OTOG the likes PG and PB seem to have ONE guitar that they learn inside out. Given the great value and beauty of these instruments, it's more like being a cellist or something....

A violinist put it like this to me - for a professional string player buying a new instrument is like buying a house. There's a lot of stress and complexity in the decision. Guitarists, whose instruments are relatively inexpensive, can afford to collectors. (Esp. if they play lots of theatre gigs lol.)

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, priced a bassoon lately? We guitar players get off pretty easy

[jorgemg1984]

That's such an incredible record. Probably my favorite guitar tone of his. Did he use the Gibson sig model on that recording?

I've seen him at Blues Alley with the Benedetto and it seems to not be as dark in person as on recordings. I mean, it's still pretty dark, but it's a bit more clear. The Live at Blues Alley recording sounds much different then when I was in the room hearing him.

I think it's the Gibson, but I can't say for sure. I agree - part of his darker sound is the shift from a Twin Reverb to "jazz amps", but it's also how his records are produced.

If you listen here, his tone is also darker than "El Hombre", but not too dark.

[El Fundo]

Last week I got a brand new Godin Montreal Premiere P90. What’s disturbing is I like its tone better than my ES-275.
It’s woodier sounding, probably because of the breathe-through center block. But the 275 is completely hollow, has a nitro finish, and humbuckers. The Godin is semi-hollow, thinner than the Gibson, has a poly finish and P90s. I’m able to get a fatter and warmer sound than what I get with the 275. The 275 cost me $3600 and the Godin $1000. I’ve already spoken with Pete Biltoft who recommended a humbucker with Alnico 3 magnets for the 275 and I should have it in a few days.

[jorgemg1984]

In Jack Zucker's group of august professionals, Pasquale Grasso plays a Trenier, Paul Bollenback plays a Borys, Peter Mazza plays a Gibson Super V, Vic Juris plays a Borys, Peter Bernstein plays a Zeidler, Gilad Hekselman plays a Victor Baker, Mike Moreno plays a Marchione, Mark Whitfield plays a Marchione so, yeah, tone may well be in the fingers but these fellows are not immune to the charms of nice boutique guitars, too, just like the rest of us.

Pasquale put his prize, a Benedetto Pat Martino, that he won in the Wes Montgomery Competition up for sale as soon as he got it so even Pasquale recognises tone is not always in the fingers but in the guitar, too, just like the rest of us lesser mortals. The Benedetto Pat Martino was not his tone.

Ulf Wakenius may well tear it up with that Aria but he won't enjoy it very much if that is what he is restricted to play for the rest of his life. Isn't Ulf playing a Westville guitar now?

I am not saying that the Aria is not a good guitar but a nicer guitar is a nicer guitar and nobody is immune to the charms of a nicer anything.

Jabs, you can always say what I wanted to say, but better!

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah, priced a bassoon lately? We guitar players get off pretty easy

Maybe if guitars cost a whole lot more we would learn our one and only instrument a lot better. But guitarists are attracted to guitars in large part because we are an unfaithful lot; we love lots of gear. At least, we are not like drummers: those hoops of air take up a lot of space. I know a drummer with ten full-sized kits and he practically lives on his sofa; even with them stacked he has no space for anything else.

[mr. beaumont]

Maybe if guitars cost a whole lot more we would learn our one and only instrument a lot better. But guitarists are attracted to guitars in large part because we are an unfaithful lot; we love lots of gear. At least, we are not like drummers: those hoops of air take up a lot of space. I know a drummer with ten full-sized kits and he practically lives on his sofa; even with them stacked he has no space for anything else.

One thing for sure, if guitars were more expensive more guitar players would "specialize" in a style than be genre hoppers...I look around the house and see my "jazz" guitar, my "gypsy jazz" guitar, my "country gig" guitar, my "plug in nylon that gets mostly used for lite classical at wedding ceremonies" guitar, etc...

Or is that chicken/egg...would heavy metal have been invented by guys playing L5's?

[christianm77]

Last week I got a brand new Godin Montreal Premiere P90. What’s disturbing is I like its tone better than my ES-275.
It’s woodier sounding, probably because of the breathe-through center block. But the 275 is completely hollow, has a nitro finish, and humbuckers. The Godin is semi-hollow, thinner than the Gibson, has a poly finish and P90s. I’m able to get a fatter and warmer sound than what I get with the 275. The 275 cost me $3600 and the Godin $1000. I’ve already spoken with Pete Biltoft who recommended a humbucker with Alnico 3 magnets for the 275 and I should have it in a few days.

Maybe the Godin is quite simply YOUR VOICE.

The 275.... I like that guitar, really enjoyed playing one in the shop, but it's kind of not quite sure what it is?

Also, the guitar with P90s always has the best tone lol. (Says the guy who owns no guitars with P90s.)

[wintermoon]

"Well I have it from Peter B that his guitar completely changed the way he hears chords.... He was playing a ES175 before, so not exactly a cheap guitar, but the Zeidler obviously elevated his playing for him. I mean he sounds amazing on any guitar to my ears, but that guitar clearly has a fantastic sound. I really like that half acoustic sound he gets on quieter gigs.

He also mentioned he used to own an L5 that he thought was quite a bad guitar. I think he sold it to finance the Zeidler?"

Correct, I played it in Zeidlers shop, it was a Wesmo, and not a great one. He bought the Zeidler from Larry Wexer, but John wanted him to play one of his new guitars, but sadly never got to make him one.
Pete fell in love w the early Zeidler and I wonder if he'd have felt the same about a new one.
It worked out for Pete, but tragically.

[Stringswinger]

I think it's the Gibson, but I can't say for sure. I agree - part of his darker sound is the shift from a Twin Reverb to "jazz amps", but it's also how his records are produced.

If you listen here, his tone is also darker than "El Hombre", but not too dark.

It WAS the Gibson Pat Martino on the Yoshi's live album. I was at all of those Yoshi's shows, sitting in the front row. Pat was using an Acoustic Image Clarus amp through two Mesa Cabinets (I have no idea what speakers were in those cabs, but I assume Mesa branded Celestions) I even acquired a Gibson Pat Martino after those shows and had Pat sign the pickguard at a later show at Kuumbwa (Santa Cruz). I could never get "my" tone out of the Gibson Pat Martino (loved the neck and the appointments, though) and sold it a few years later. At the end of the day, Pat and I have different fingers. Who knew!

[El Fundo]

What’s really interesting is that the Godin is pretty unimpressive unplugged (sounds like an unamplified solid body but slightly louder), whereas the 275 sounds beautiful unplugged—very good balance of lows, mids, and highs, which led me to believe it’s Gibson’s MHS pickups, which is what led me to call Pete Biltoft. I described the sound I’m getting with the 275 to him and he recommended Alnico 3 magnets. I hope he’s right!

[rmpmcdermott]

It WAS the Gibson Pat Martino on the Yoshi's live album. I was at all of those Yoshi's shows, sitting in the front row. Pat was using an Acoustic Image Clarus amp through two Mesa Cabinets (I have no idea what speakers were in those cabs, but I assume Mesa branded Celestions) I even acquired a Gibson Pat Martino after those shows and had Pat sign the pickguard at a later show at Kuumbwa (Santa Cruz). I could never get "my" tone out of the Gibson Pat Martino (loved the neck and the appointments, though) and sold it a few years later. At the end of the day, Pat and I have different fingers. Who knew!

Thanks for the info! See, now I'm wondering if I'm wrong about him playing the Benedetto at the 2009 Blues Alley gigs. I'll have to see if I can find some photos.

Edit: It must have been the Gibson on that Blues Alley record since he switched to Benedetto in 2011.

[Greentone]

Wintermoon,

Martino sounded great on El Hombre. His playing was outstanding, too. That's a classic.

IIRC, Martino was playing a L5/Fender Twin Reverb on that album. Anyone?

If I remembered that one correctly, it's pretty hard to go wrong with that rig. You bring the chops/ideas...and Gibson/Fender will not let you down.

[Gitfiddler]

It WAS the Gibson Pat Martino on the Yoshi's live album. I was at all of those Yoshi's shows, sitting in the front row. Pat was using an Acoustic Image Clarus amp through two Mesa Cabinets (I have no idea what speakers were in those cabs, but I assume Mesa branded Celestions) I even acquired a Gibson Pat Martino after those shows and had Pat sign the pickguard at a later show at Kuumbwa (Santa Cruz). I could never get "my" tone out of the Gibson Pat Martino (loved the neck and the appointments, though) and sold it a few years later. At the end of the day, Pat and I have different fingers. Who knew!

I also caught Martino at the 2014 Yoshi's shows and after his set, had an opportunity to ask him about his tone. No, he didn't tell me it came from his fingers, LOL. Since I specifically asked how he was able to mimic a full sized archtop tone from his signature Gibson model that is chambered. Pat smiled and said the following... "Modern amp technology...".

He really sounded great at this live venue. However, to me, the CD version did not capture his live tone. It was more dark than he actually was at Yoshis.

The Facebook group set up by Zucker seems like a good idea for upper eschelon jazz guitarists to hang out and exchange ideas and music, and wish him well.

[mr. beaumont]

Wintermoon,

Martino sounded great on El Hombre. His playing was outstanding, too. That's a classic.

IIRC, Martino was playing a L5/Fender Twin Reverb on that album. Anyone?

If I remembered that one correctly, it's pretty hard to go wrong with that rig. You bring the chops/ideas...and Gibson/Fender will not let you down.

Don't forget about 10lbs. of stuffing!

[christianm77]

What’s really interesting is that the Godin is pretty unimpressive unplugged (sounds like an unamplified solid body but slightly louder), whereas the 275 sounds beautiful unplugged—very good balance of lows, mids, and highs, which led me to believe it’s Gibson’s MHS pickups, which is what led me to call Pete Biltoft. I described the sound I’m getting with the 275 to him and he recommended Alnico 3 magnets. I hope he’s right!

Worth a go.... Please post comparison audio etc :-)

[Tal_175]

For electric guitars acceptable tone range is between the boundaries of:
"Cannot be heard in the mix" <----------> "Cause listener fatigue"
Any tone in-between has potential to sound good in the capable hands.

[christianm77]

For electric guitars acceptable tone range is between the boundaries of:
"Cannot be heard in the mix" <----------> "Cause listener fatigue"
Any tone in-between has potential to sound good in the capable hands.

Haha putting it in perspective...

[wintermoon]

Wintermoon,

Martino sounded great on El Hombre. His playing was outstanding, too. That's a classic.

IIRC, Martino was playing a L5/Fender Twin Reverb on that album. Anyone?

If I remembered that one correctly, it's pretty hard to go wrong with that rig. You bring the chops/ideas...and Gibson/Fender will not let you down.

He's pictured w Johnny Smith on the cover, (not that a pic on a cover means that was the instrument used)
He was using an L5 in the mid 60s and switched to a Smith, not really sure which guitar was on that record.
I'm thinking it was the Smith.

[wintermoon]

I also caught Martino at the 2014 Yoshi's shows and after his set, had an opportunity to ask him about his tone. No, he didn't tell me it came from his fingers, LOL. Since I specifically asked how he was able to mimic a full sized archtop tone from his signature Gibson model that is chambered. Pat smiled and said the following... "Modern amp technology...".

He really sounded great at this live venue. However, to me, the CD version did not capture his live tone. It was more dark than he actually was at Yoshis.

The Facebook group set up by Zucker seems like a good idea for upper eschelon jazz guitarists to hang out and exchange ideas and music, and wish him well.

I always wondered about that because I don't really like the sound quality of the guitar on that record and I knew it was a Gibson Martino.
I caught Pat and Joey but w Byron Landham on drums, he was using the Gibson them.

[gitman]

Hey all,
this realization is not really new, don't you all agree ?
I was lucky enough to have had a few lessons from Ted Greene when I was 16 (!!) and had booked a few courses at Dick Grove's Music Workshop in Studio City/LA, back in 1976. Ted was using his totally modded Tele with about 5 pickups in it and 10 switches ... When he bought that guitar it was CHEAP, a guitar designed for the working dick who couldn't afford a more expensive instrument. Ted liked the neck shape, the size and over the years he made it into this mongrel that worked for him.
Another nice example (for me at least) is : Ed Bickert ! Gets a signature sound from his beat up Tele and moves me to tears....
When I was still booking gigs at our local hall years ago we had Ulf together with NH Orsted Pedersen and Ulf had his Aria, played through a Twin we provided. They played a great set and I had a chance to look at his guitar after they were done : it was all caked up, dirty, with age old flats on it and I did not want to touch it...
It did make me wonder how he managed with that thing, through all his gigs with Oscar Peterson et al ....saw a clip a few months back where he playes a Benedetto and it sounds so la la...
Last but not least there is Bill Frisell, gear hound extraordinaire. He was here with Paul Motian and Joe Lovano and had his Steve Klein guitar, a very exclusive thing 20 years ago. He hears different things in all of his guitars but when I listen to him play he always has "his" tone, no matter which hot new pickup he's trying out or if the bridge is made of zirconium, titanium or unobtanium....

Flaming others for their opinion on tone, gear and taste is uncool in any event and besides, we're all living in glass houses. I just love guitars and would have a few dozen more if fortuna would allow it, so I make do with the 13 I do own :-)


p.s.: I forgot to mention Lorne Lofsky, used a cheapo Ibanez Strat copy with O. Peterson ! And who doesn't love Jimmy Page's epic sounds with his Silvertone ? Ry Cooder on his Teisco Del Rey, Charlie Parker on a plastic alto.......... it goes all the way back to the beginning. Players with the right ideas can transcend physical boundaries.

[deacon Mark]

My 19 year son is a fast 800 meter runner with 1:58 speed with track spikes. He said in training flats he runs 2 flat. In either situation he is faster than 99.9% of ordinary folks...……….it all in the feet right?

[jorgemg1984]

It WAS the Gibson Pat Martino on the Yoshi's live album. I was at all of those Yoshi's shows, sitting in the front row. Pat was using an Acoustic Image Clarus amp through two Mesa Cabinets (I have no idea what speakers were in those cabs, but I assume Mesa branded Celestions) I even acquired a Gibson Pat Martino after those shows and had Pat sign the pickguard at a later show at Kuumbwa (Santa Cruz). I could never get "my" tone out of the Gibson Pat Martino (loved the neck and the appointments, though) and sold it a few years later. At the end of the day, Pat and I have different fingers. Who knew!

Thanks for the info!

[feet]

At least, we are not like drummers: those hoops of air take up a lot of space. I know a drummer with ten full-sized kits and he practically lives on his sofa; even with them stacked he has no space for anything else.

and that's why I spent so much money on ezdrummer this black Friday. My two drum sets are sitting in storage now. Sad concession, really, but it sounds really good.

My 19 year son is a fast 800 meter runner with 1:58 speed with track spikes. He said in training flats he runs 2 flat. In either situation he is faster than 99.9% of ordinary folks...……….it all in the feet right?

you bet.

speed is in the toes

[D.G.]

Tone is in the gear. The fingers pull the tone out. Different fingers pull different shades.