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I'll record something tomorrow with these Pyramid to see if you guys like the sound, and will record the the LaBella set later to see if there is any change.
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04-04-2018 01:25 AM
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Here's a comparison between the two.
The Pyramids lack the sizzling the roundwound has but they're not as dead as one might expect. Still a good sound, vintagy to me and the best part is, no squeaks.
I think I recorded the roundwound part closer to the mic, but you get the idea.
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No skin in the game, as I don't have a GJ guitar, but did see the movie so hopefully that counts!
Originally Posted by Sacco
Tending to prefer the sound in the 1st clip... I don't hear any appreciable squeaking in either clip.
1st clip seems to have a fuller, cleaner sound... 2nd clip also sounds great, maybe a bit punchier.
Loving the knuckle-knock... Very well recorded and played!
Also, great is resurrection of an 9 year old thread! There are no wasted threads here!!
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Thank you. I'm just having a blast with Gypsy Jazz.
Last edited by Sacco; 04-05-2018 at 12:29 AM.
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I dig it!! Those pyramid's sound just fine. I've never thought of using flats on my Dupont. I'm gonna give it a try. Thanks for the idea!
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New bridge arrived. Jeez that was fast!
Looks good to me. The moustaches aren't as refined (need sanding on the tips) and since they match the ones I have I'm not gonna use the new ones.
The bridge looks proper, needs a bit of oil to darken it and polishing.
I'll let you know how it goes regarding intonation with the flatwounds.
After some steel wool and dunlop 02 fretboard oil.
Bridge installed, not as crooked this time, the intonation is better, almost on point, the G string is still a bit high (I'm also using a strobe peterson tuner) but nothing that bothers now. I think is the same with some of the Sweet and Lowdown recordings, on some songs I can hear the guitar pretty out of tune on the high register which adds some sort of beauty to it. The bridge itself is indeed rosewood, high quality and its sound is about the same as with the old one, no change that I can mention. Also came with pretty good dimensions, exactly the same width as my old bridge and the exact proper string action.
I'll see later if the LaBella strings are better in that regard. Jeez I'm still amazed how much of a difference intonation wise this set made. Still don't understand well why, I suspect it has to do with how stiff the metal type is and how much the argies stretch without losing tuning...but bends feel pretty much the same, so...I'm a bit puzzled. Anyway, nothing a bridge cannot fix.
Last edited by Sacco; 04-09-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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Because the tension is less, the Guitar will hold up better, success. The Flatwound design will save the frets from scratches.
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Aren't these guitars traditionally used with nylon strings? If so you might want to give nylon tape-wounds a try; the LaBella Jazz Tapes or Pyramid's Black Tape Nylon (supposedly for electric guitar). They'll definitely tame an unruly guitar, and at least the Pyramids sound very sweet acoustically (finger picked).
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While that is technically true, early Maccafferi guitars did have nylon strings (and makers like Dupont and even Altamira make nylon-stringed versions of their grande bouche designs), they were soon "replaced" with what are most commonly used on these guitars for the past 80 or so years. It's important to remember the context of these instruments back in the 30s and 40s in the pre/early amplification days in the musette scene in Paris and the need for a loud and punchy instrument. When the Selmers effectively replaced the plectrum banjo, volume and cut was still a key consideration. Originally Posted by RJVB
I primarily play this style of music, and while I have no desire to use anything but Argentines, it's interesting to see how others approach the instrument. I am a big proponent of the Selmer style instruments being far more versatile than they are given credit, but I think the traditional style of string works just fine. I've played a few with bronze strings and they just never felt right to me. But I don't begrudge anyone figuring out what works best for what they are hearing in their head or want to feel under their fingers.
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Kind of hard to imagine that nylon strings couldn't be cutting enough in the typical small French venues. Anyway, Kremona make IIRC two (Lulu?) Reinhardt signature grande-bouche models, and at least one of them is a nylon-stringer. The few soundbites I've heard of it suggest it is indeed a very versatile guitar. Then again, any guitar that is correctly designed for use with composite is, IMHO
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Nylon string guitars can be remarkably loud...
I have an early post in this thread where I talked about using flats on a D-hole...this was very early on in my experience with these guitars, and at that time I was really looking for an acoustic guitar to play jazz on, not necessarily a "gypsy jazz" sound.
Time went on and I got into the idea of actually playing Django's music, and it was clear what string was the right choice.
And I found, in time, I could control the Argentines and get softer acoustic jazz tones too...it wasn't just all brash and cutting sounds. So I kept them on...and still do, even though I don't play much in the gypsy jazz style anymore. But I certainly could, just by changing the way I hit the strings. Indeed, these instruments are NOT just one trick ponies...
Once you try Argentines on a Sel/Mac style...it's just one of those "goldilocks" moments. It's THE sound. Not saying you can't go after other sounds with those guitars...but for THE sound, there's really no more direct route than those Argentines.
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I think with modern amplification, many nylon strung guitars have their place amongst traditional Selmacs. Sébastien Giniaux has frequently used what I think is a Dupont nylon Grand Bouche, and Raphaël Faÿs tours with a Cordoba. A lot of it is in the fingers of the player and their desired tones. Even in a strictly acoustic/mic'ed setting, Raphaël sounded great live, but his guitar did not have the cut or volume of the guitarists he shared the stage with. Brilliant tone and blistering technique, just a different tonality that serves him exactly as he needs. Originally Posted by RJVB
In terms of the transition to what we commonly associate with Gypsy strings, I'm going off what Michael Dregne wrote in his biography about Django. I don't have a reason to suspect his information as incorrect. I'd imagine that Pigalle in the late 30s was quite loud, and nylon/gut strings probably didn't produce the kind of volume those players needed. People were going to these cabarets and venues to have a good time, not just listen to the music.
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Tell me about it... you'd think a big steel-string acoustic like my jumbo should blow classical guitars out of the water, but playing finger-style I'm pretty certain the opposite is the case (then again I'm comparing a factory instrument against a Kohno from the 70s...) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I never used Argentines because of the very light basses which probably won't work well if you don't want to use them percussively.
And evidently 30s players couldn't use nylon strings
. Good gut strings are brighter than nylon, though.
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Don't get me wrong, nylons can certainly be loud, but I don't think it's even a fair fight between Argies and downstroke picking against a nylon equipped guitar 9 out of 10 times in a group setting. The way Argies cut through a mix in combination with the unique Selmac construction makes them fairly remarkable. Originally Posted by RJVB
Tell me about it... you'd think a big steel-string acoustic like my jumbo should blow classical guitars out of the water, but playing finger-style I'm pretty certain the opposite is the case (then again I'm comparing a factory instrument against a Kohno from the 70s...)
I never used Argentines because of the very light basses which probably won't work well if you don't want to use them percussively.
And evidently 30s players couldn't use nylon strings. Good gut strings are brighter than nylon, though.
I find that the long scale 670mm on my Gaffiero provides sufficient tension for me to every expressive on the wound strings. You don't need to hammer the strings all of the time. These guitars are far more dynamic than many people think IMO.
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To be fair, I'm comparing finger-picking to finger-picking, and judging from my own position. I have no idea about the balance as heard from the audience. Originally Posted by JSanta
Mass and tension are more or less interchangeable to determine the pitch a string will generate, but a thinner, higher-tension string will have more high frequency content (because less internal damping). We hear that as a brighter sound. I'm not certain exactly how the considerably longer scale length plays in this context though. You think you could get a convincing delta blues with a nice droning bass out of your Argies?I find that the long scale 670mm on my Gaffiero provides sufficient tension for me to every expressive on the wound strings.
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I have zero idea where to start with delta blues, so you'll have to count me out. Thor Jensen on Les Deux Guitares did get a surprisingly good slide tone out of his Selmac though on Stéphane Wrembel's Django Experiment. Originally Posted by RJVB
To be fair, I'm comparing finger-picking to finger-picking, and judging from my own position. I have no idea about the balance as heard from the audience.
Mass and tension are more or less interchangeable to determine the pitch a string will generate, but a thinner, higher-tension string will have more high frequency content (because less internal damping). We hear that as a brighter sound. I'm not certain exactly how the considerably longer scale length plays in this context though. You think you could get a convincing delta blues with a nice droning bass out of your Argies?
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I mentioned delta blues just because it's the style I could think of, but a basic 12-bar blues foundation in E is about as simple as it gets. Originally Posted by JSanta
This is a bit more complicated but still has those same bass notes in it (and there's a link to the free score)
EDIT: slide technique is great but usually used for melodic parts so not necessarily the most appropriate for showcasing the bass response
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If acoustic volume is paramount, a resonator guitar will blow away the loudest Gypsy guitar or classical. My Dupont Gypsy guitar and my Thames Classical are both quite loud, but the Dupont does have more cut (and more fret access) than the classical so the Dupont is the tool of choice for a non-amplified jazz gig. That said, the Thames is every bit as loud as the Dupont.
I have never owned a resonator guitar. I just don't like the tone. But the volume is impressive.
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I think that is a valid point. What I failed to articulate better is that with the Argentine style strings on a Selmac style guitar not only have impressive volume, but cut through a mix remarkably well. It's why you can have a few people playing a la pompe behind a soloist without losing them along the way. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
A lot of factors at play with these instruments, including a not-so irrelevant nod to the past (in many of the same ways electric archtops still have their place in a modern electric world).
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