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Guys, thanks but I feel that the jury is still out on the last topic. I'm not satisfied with my initial conclusions, that's why I added the PS & PPS. (In between chores, I'm trying to come up with a practical experiment that will close out the topic.)
randyc
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11-17-2009 01:16 PM
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Being a "feel" guy, as opposed to analytic, this is all interesting, but the test is what happens, not when I attach instruments to my strings, but when I play them. Thanks to all for telling me so much more than I will absorb or be able to use.
Of course, this knowledge will be REALLY useful if it can answer the frequent question on this forum, "How do I get that jazz guitar sound?"
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Well, "analytic" is the last thing I am when playing the guitar. I find it useful, though, to understand something about the physics and technology of sound production when I want to achieve a certain tonality. Otherwise the "tone search" becomes an exercise in trial-and-error. Even having an analytic approach to tonality, there are still plenty of surprises...
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so true.
Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil
like how somedays i'll sound great, but other days--same guitar, same amp, same cord, pick, strings, hell--same wall outlet, and the tone isn't there. it's partially perception, but it's also in some intangibles that we can discuss to death and reach no conclusion on.
on rock and blues related pages, it's here where someone will say "tone is in the hands." god, i hate that quote, but somedays it's the only thing i can find that's for or against my tone...
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Be assured I am not being critical. You are simply doing what I do when I'm recording and mixing. There are engineers who claim to be "feel" guys but, nonetheless, "engineer" is the title.
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OK, tried to make a string harmonic distortion test. Here is the test setup.
The guitar volume is at maximum, so is the tone control, the instrument is plugged into my oscilloscope with a little bit of filtering added to remove noise and radio stations (they always sneak in when one makes sensitive measurements). The shiny rod positioned over the guitar neck is an electromagnet that I wound (several hundred turns of enamelled wire over a steel core) to excite movement of the guitar strings.
The idea was to be able to position the electromagnet, in close proximity to the guitar strings, at various locations so as to excite higher order harmonics. The electromagnet is connected to a signal generator - frequency and amplitude are variable - so that the amount of magnetism applied to the string and the frequency at which it is excited could be adjusted.
OK, a few days back, some of you may have read my post regarding shielding a Telecaster body cavity. I noted that higher frequency interference could be shielded but that low-frequency MAGNETIC coupling could NOT be shielded, right ?
I was hoping not to experience this but unhappily the magnetic coupling from my electromagnet to the guitar pickup is WAY STRONGER than the coupling from electromagnet-to-string-to-pickup. I had anticipated that I could move the electromagnet far enough away from the pickup so that it wouldn't be a problem. NOT. (Poor planning on my part, a little common sense could have eliminated this waste of time !)
I'll try again later with a humbucker instead of a P-90 guitar. Other things that need doing now .... so the string harmonic distortion story is still untold.
PS: just tried a different guitar with humbucker - still too much magnetic coupling. Backup plan was to modify a small loudspeaker, using it as a mechanical string actuator. Don't have one, unfortunately .... I'll pick up one next time wife drives me to town and continue this work.Last edited by randyc; 11-18-2009 at 01:02 AM. Reason: add PS
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Yeah, that's always mystified me too! Atmospheric conditions, karma, sun spots? I don't have a clue! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Apparently, Randy can devise a test to measure this phenomenon. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Earwax?
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Oh yes, test procedures can be devised for just about anything ... one may not be happy with the results however .... (e.g. politicians attached to polygraphs). Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Apparently, Randy can devise a test to measure this phenomenon.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Too much treble = bleeding ears or ear fatigue. Two tele players that I love, Danny Gatton and Roy Buchanan were guilty of this at times. I love them both but I definitely would get tired of the treble after about 3 songs when I saw them in concert. Johnny Winter is the same for me. Too much treble just grates on my nerves after a while.
As for as dynamics, timbre has nothing to do w/ dynamics unless you are playing through pedals that are compressing your sound or cranking your amp so much that it is compressing your sound. Dynamics is all about touch. Whether I have my tone all up or all down my touch (hopefully) is going to come through.
=-) PJ
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You'd need a Polytone amp for this one... Originally Posted by randyc
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Good topic here randyc - really intersting and informative reading all the comments it has generated from everyone ... bit of a steep learning curve for me though. I think I'm going to set every guitar and every amp I've got to 'dead centre' and never mention the words 'jazz tone' ever again.
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Man, you sure give up easy! Me, I'm still waiting on my Weber 15" that I just KNOW will melt hearts at 500 paces. Originally Posted by RAQ
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Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Well I don't care - I don't know what a Weber 15" is, and I don't want to know. I couldn't hear it at 15 paces let alone 500, and I couldn't focus on it at any greater than 5. I want to play a tune damn it, any tune, while I can still see a leadsheet.
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You keep trying to reduce everything to facts and reality. Originally Posted by RAQ
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I have been thinking about this exact question.
First off, I hate that so many jazzers want to sound like a horn or a piano when they play guitar. If that's your calling, go for it, but for me, I want a guitar to sound like a guitar. An instrument sounding like itself is instrumental in progressing the instrument itself.
So...we have enough volume now. We can amplify the first incarnation of the guitar, the nylon string acoustic, to where we can play it in a full hall. Of course, feedback becomes an issue.
After thinking about this a lot, I think that the original goal was so eventually come up with a guitar like the Godin Multiac played with your nails. That is the original sound with the original problems solved.
And I love that tone. So "guitar." Nothing else. It's beautiful!
Also, instead of looking at the "original goal" I like looking at the "best" (in my opinion) thing that guitarists discovered along the way. That to me is a semi-hollow guitar with humbuckers. If the Godin Multiac is the quintessential guitar tone (in terms of the original goal), then the semi-hollow is the quintessential electric guitar. It is a beautiful mix of the compromise of tone (solid body) with the increase in volume (hollow body) and an interesting thing discovered along the way (magnetic pickups and metal strings).
But, out in left field, I think that the most natural, beautiful sound is a fretless guitar. If you've ever played one you will either agree with me or not--to me at least, fretless feels and sound so much more natural than a fretted. Frets feel like miniature prisons after you spend some time on a fretless.
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Some good points. This is what makes these discussions so interesting -- everyone has different experience, and different tastes. Originally Posted by Smitty
I see guitar (and, especially, electric guitar) as a continuum: some players find their voice with one flavor or another of acoustics, others delve into electric, add or don't add effects, and so on, with the net result being that each of has an individual sound. To read the forums catering to the rockers, you'd think tone was a horse race, with everyone vying to be the most like "X" (X being a moving target that changes, depending upon the generation of the player).
Not to cast stones: I've played my share of rock and roll, and maybe someone else's, too, and Dobro and harmonica and -- just to keep busy -- top-40 C&W bass. Variety is the spice of life; the music equivalent to seasoning is not a little added salt or paprika, but the difference between filet of sole and octopus.
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