2000s Gibson ES-175 - Where to find a Brazilian Rosewood bridge?

**rpguitar** · 09-26-2018, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Roger, when it comes to guitar tone, everything is subjective.

True, but I wrote relatively little about guitar tone. The info about saddle material density and how string vibrations transfer is not all that subjective. But its audible effects might be. That's where we get all tripped up in these conversations.

For example, you and many others say that wooden saddles are warmer. To me that statement has to be qualified, because I don't hear it quite that way. Wood has more high midrange (low treble) content, which produces a brighter sound to me, but it has less sustain, which blunts the sound and can be interpreted as warm. Metal may have more prominent upper harmonics producing brightness, but it preserves lower frequency content better as well, so it is both bright and dark.

Anyway, one learns by trying. So that's what 2B/Greg should probably do.

**pingu** · 09-26-2018, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

This means that rosewood, being the least dense, transfers the most string vibration to the soundboard, and metal the least.

Nope , it's the other way round i believe
A less less sense , less stiff , more compliant
material will absorb some of the (particularly hf)
energy ... Consider for ex a rubber bridge ,
it would be woolly sounding with no hf

**2bornot2bop** · 09-26-2018, 06:03 PM

Lots of great information on this thread. I deeply appreciate everyone chiming in with their experiences. RP you just saved me $250 as I was about to purchase one of the "vintage" BR bridges. Time to do some bridge swappin'

**rpguitar** · 09-27-2018, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

less stiff, more compliant
material will absorb some of the (particularly hf)
energy ... Consider for ex a rubber bridge

Right, of course; any saddle material has to be stiff. I took for granted that people would assume that. Nobody is using rubber or paper saddles.

I'm no physicist. But mass, density, and stiffness are all factors with similar impact. The more heavy, dense, and stiff the strings' support endpoints are, the more vibration energy stays in the strings - rather than being transferred to other components.

Just try the saddles out.

Empiricism rules the day.

**Max405** · 09-27-2018, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I have replaced the TOMs on my two figured 175's (a 1997 and a 2017) with rosewood saddles (they look like Brazilian rosewood, but with Vinny's info, maybe not) and I have replaced the TOMs on my L-5 WESMO and my Super 400CES with Ebony saddles. In all 4 cases, the tone was warmed up. Just the way I like it. Those TOMs will stay in their respective case pockets as long as I own those 4 guitars.

SS, When you replaced the stock ti-TOM's with rosewood, did you notice if affected the sustain at all? The 175 I got from Vinny sustains forever, almost like my JP20 did. I love that about the guitar.
The one thing about TOM's I don't like, they are not made to the radius that I like. I prefer my radius to match or compliment the radius around the 10-12th frets. They just don't.
That's probably why I always go back to my Johnnys or my 165, which has a perfectly matched rosewood saddle.
Joe D

**skiboyny** · 09-27-2018, 08:35 AM

The TOM usually sustain more than either ebony or rosewood. That has been my experience. I always change the TOM out even though there is a noticeable sustain loss, the overall tone is a win for me.

Originally Posted by Max405

SS, When you replaced the stock ti-TOM's with rosewood, did you notice if affected the sustain at all? The 175 I got from Vinny sustains forever, almost like my JP20 did. I love that about the guitar.
The one thing about TOM's I don't like, they are not made to the radius that I like. I prefer my radius to match or compliment the radius around the 10-12th frets. They just don't.
That's probably why I always go back to my Johnnys or my 165, which has a perfectly matched rosewood saddle.
Joe D

**floatingpickup** · 09-27-2018, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by vinnyv1k

Actually those are factory Gibson wood saddles from the late 1970’s. They didn’t compensate the B on their wood saddles in those days. Norlin saddles my friend.

I remember those Norlin saddles (non-compensated) being available in the seventies. I bought a couple of them too and I still use them today. I have seen a few on eBay over the years, but haven’t looked lately. I also bought a couple vintage brz rosewood bridges on eBay, just to get the saddles. They weren’t cheap, but I didn’t want to put reproductions on vintage guitars.
Keith

**Stringswinger** · 09-27-2018, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Max405

SS, When you replaced the stock ti-TOM's with rosewood, did you notice if affected the sustain at all? The 175 I got from Vinny sustains forever, almost like my JP20 did. I love that about the guitar.
The one thing about TOM's I don't like, they are not made to the radius that I like. I prefer my radius to match or compliment the radius around the 10-12th frets. They just don't.
That's probably why I always go back to my Johnnys or my 165, which has a perfectly matched rosewood saddle.
Joe D

A little sustain is lost in exchange for better tone IMO

**floatingpickup** · 09-28-2018, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

A little sustain is lost in exchange for better tone IMO

I totally agree that the tone is much better with a wooden saddle. Sustain is less, but I don’t think that is important for jazz guitar. I have wooden saddles on all my guitars.
Keith

**Stringswinger** · 09-28-2018, 06:06 PM

Here is a picture of the other rosewood bridge that Vinny gave me that is on my 97 175. Highly figured reddish wood. It sure looks Brazilian to me. Maybe Norlin had some pieces of Brazilian rosewood that they wanted to use up in the 70's? 2000s Gibson ES-175 - Where to find a Brazilian Rosewood bridge?-97-175-bridge-jpg

2000s Gibson ES-175 - Where to find a Brazilian Rosewood bridge?-97-175-bridge-jpg

**silverfoxx** · 09-28-2018, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Vinny was a fan of Bill Gagnon bridges too wasn't he. Gagnon made bridges from all sorts of exotic woods.

Thanks for the input. Okay, in that case I've a Gagnon bridge made for a 16" L4 style guitar made of African blackwood (thanks Patrick) - I'll give that a shot

If you recall, Patrick recommended Gagnon African Blackwood bridges to me,
I still have them , one replaced the TOM on my L4CES, an absolute transformation
of tone. and no more "ping"., failing that, rosewood saddles or bridges are superior to
TOM bridges IMHO.
My latest ( and last)acquisition, a new GB10 has what looks suspiciously like an
Ebony Bridge assembly . producing a nice warm tone also. All of which is
academic now that dreaded arthritis ( or PMR) has taken its toll, regrettably
forcing very soon the disposal of my beloved archtops.

**2bornot2bop** · 09-28-2018, 06:53 PM

I have no other bridges on hand other than a Gagnon African Blackwood. But this alone displayed the possibilities. Sounds like a completely different guitar.

**2bornot2bop** · 09-28-2018, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Here is a picture of the other rosewood bridge that Vinny gave me that is on my 97 175. Highly figured reddish wood. It sure looks Brazilian to me. Maybe Norlin had some pieces of Brazilian rosewood that they wanted to use up in the 70's? 2000s Gibson ES-175 - Where to find a Brazilian Rosewood bridge?-97-175-bridge-jpg

SS, gorgeous bridge. I wish I had a friend like Vinny!