Buying my first Gibson archtop

[Skadiddle12]

Hi all,
Need some recommendations for my final two options. The first being an all original clean 1980 Gibson ES-175D with an unoriginal Gibson case for about 2 grand. The second is a 1967 Gibson ES-175D for 2 grand too but it has replaced tuners and a replaced neck pickup which is a Duncan 57 I think. It also was refretted and cleaned. I'm going to try them both out at the different sellers. If you had to get it online, which would you choose? Does the 67 give a more vintage sound? Trying to aim for Joe Pass's sound. Which on would hold value better?

Thanks

[Gustavo Eiriz]

Hi all,
Need some recommendations for my final two options. The first being an all original clean 1980 Gibson ES-175D with an unoriginal Gibson case for about 2 grand. The second is a 1967 Gibson ES-175D for 2 grand too but it has replaced tuners and a replaced bridge pickup which is a Duncan 57 I think. It also was regretted and cleaned. I'm going to try them both out at the different sellers. If you had to get it online, which would you choose? Does the 67 give a more vintage sound? Trying to aim for Joe Pass's sound. Which on would hold value better?

Thanks

I think that the most important thing to care for in this kind of guitar is the top no to be sinked. I wouldnt care about the mic and tuner replacement.
Both are norlin guitars, 1967 is not a 100% vintage year.
If i would have to buy online, supossing that both guitar are ok (neck is straight and top hasnt sinked) i would go for the lighter weight one: since they are mostly the more resonant guitars, and that resonance gives a richer tone and attack to the sound. IMHO.

[Greentone]

67 is pre-norlin

[vinlander]

Considering the 1967, the narrow 1 9/16 nut width "could" be something you might not like.

[Greentone]

Fwiw, not all '67s had a 1-9/16. My '68 ES175 had a wider neck.

[rpguitar]

As others have mentioned, a ‘67 usually has a narrower nut but often a chunky neck profile which compensates nicely. These are comfortable to play for some people, and not for others. The lighter weight is nice.

A 1980 model will have less value on paper despite the typical 1 & 11/16” Gibson nut width, which may be entirely unfair in terms of its quality. Also watch for a volute and maple neck on that year, and dull sound since they often have low value pots.

The replaced ‘67 tuners I wouldn’t care less about. Bridge pickup, same. Re-fretted? Great! The original frets on the ‘80 might be wide and flat, which I personally hate. Sight unseen, I’d take my chances with the older one. It’s arguably under priced unless it’s hiding something.

[Skadiddle12]

As others have mentioned, a ‘67 usually has a narrower nut but often a chunky neck profile which compensates nicely. These are comfortable to play for some people, and not for others. The lighter weight is nice.

A 1980 model will have less value on paper despite the typical 1 & 11/16” Gibson nut width, which may be entirely unfair in terms of its quality. Also watch for a volute and maple neck on that year, and dull sound since they often have low value pots.

The replaced ‘67 tuners I wouldn’t care less about. Bridge pickup, same. Re-fretted? Great! The original frets on the ‘80 might be wide and flat, which I personally hate. Sight unseen, I’d take my chances with the older one. It’s arguably under priced unless it’s hiding something.

Ok, but I'm kind of worried about the duncan 57 pickup on the 67 because I'm worried about not getting that classic Gibson 175 vintage tone.

[FourOnSix]

The second is a 1967 Gibson ES-175D for 2 grand too but it has replaced tuners and a replaced bridge pickup which is a Duncan 57 I think. It also was regretted and cleaned. Thanks

Get the other one. If the '67 was regretted, you will likely regret it too.

[Skadiddle12]

Get the other one. If the '67 was regretted, you will likely regret it too.

Haha

[vinlander]

Ok, but I'm kind of worried about the duncan 57 pickup on the 67 because I'm worried about not getting that classic Gibson 175 vintage tone.

You mentioned the bridge pickup only has been swapped for a duncan 57, so technically the neck pickup is still a Gibson which is what is used in Jazz primarily...Chances are you won't even use the bridge pup ever unless you target a more modern Methenesque tone or some Steve Howe rock

[Skadiddle12]

You mentioned the bridge pickup only has been swapped for a duncan 57, so technically the neck pickup is still a Gibson which is what is used in Jazz primarily...Chances are you won't even use the bridge pup ever unless you target a more modern Methenesque tone or some Steve Howe rock

Sorry the neck pickup is a Duncan 57.

[rpguitar]

There is a Duncan ‘59 and a Gibson ‘57 but not a Duncan ‘57. But either way it doesn’t matter. The pickup is not original so it can either be used happily by you or replaced for something else. You don’t base the decision to buy a guitar by the pickup that’s in it, unless the selling price factors in the pickup because it’s something valuable. This is not the case here. Both pickups mentioned above are PAF clones and perfect for jazz.

[Stringswinger]

There is a Duncan ‘59 and a Gibson ‘57 but not a Duncan ‘57. But either way it doesn’t matter. The pickup is not original so it can either be used happily by you or replaced for something else. You don’t base the decision to buy a guitar by the pickup that’s in it, unless the selling price factors in the pickup because it’s something valuable. This is not the case here. Both pickups mentioned above are PAF clones and perfect for jazz.

I can attest to the fact that a Duncan 59 is a great Jazz pickup. The original neck pickup was likely an early patent sticker pickup (pre-T-top) and is quite valuable (worth $700-$1100 by itself). The Bridge pickup is likely a patent sticker T-top (worth $300-$400) if it is original to the guitar, which is an explanation as to why the neck pickup is gone.

Having owned a 1967 single pickup ES-175 (with the narrow nut) and a 1977 two pickup ES-175 (with the volute and maple neck), I would pass on both. If you are patient, 2K will buy you a sunburst 90's ES-175, which IMO (and I own a blond 1997 ES-175) is superior to either of the guitars that you are considering.

[Max405]

I know you’ve said you are looking for the Joe Pass sound. He had many sounds. Some were the greatest of all time and some were just not that good. His sound started with the position that he chose to pick the strings with his fingers. And his attack added to that. You can can achieve a particular Joe Pass sound with either one of these guitars. When you get the guitar, you will explore the guitar and find the perfect intersection between your talent and the guitars unlimited potential and if you put enough time in, you will play a Joe Pass line and say, “wow, that sounded just like him”. Then every penny you spent will be worth it.
The bottom line is, unless it’s a turd, you can’t go wrong with either one. ITS A 175! Now go buy one, show it off to us and make music with it.
Dont forget, a nice Polytone will help your sound too. But it’s you, the amp and the guitar in the woodshed that is going to make it all come together.
Good Luck.
Joe D

[Herbie]

Good advise from experts.

One more: if You end up buying the ’67 You can always swap the original bridge pu to the neck position, which is primary for jazz. In those days there was no difference between bridge and neck pickups, it is invention of later times.

(Although I doubt that You can hear the difference between very PAFish SD57 and the original.)

[Jabberwocky]

Save your $2000 and buy one built during Henry Juskiewicz's tenure as CEO. They are out there. I like the last decade 20th Century and 21st Century ES-175D Reissues. They are in the ballpark of $2000, +/- $200.

As for pickups, there are some nice aftermarket ones out there. I discovered McNelly Pickups recently. Nice as nice can be for not much coin.

To put it unkindly, you are setting yourself up for disappointment fooling around with old jazzboxes that may have problems that you do not know enough to look out for. I am tired of old guitars with problems. It is a money pit and time sink.

Play guitar, not maintain guitar.

Only Joe Pass sounded like Joe Pass. Honestly, mate, you are better served by a good old Made in China Ibanez AF105NT or PM35 until you know better. And when you do, you won't be asking these questions in this forum.

$2000 is a lot of money and it is easy to buy someone's beat-up old guitar but not so easy to sell it on your own. Don't be that mug. Leave old guitars to those who are into old guitars.

Look for a recent build from the 1990s onwards. If you don't sound like Joe Pass, it ain't your guitar.

[Brian B]

...Dont forget, a nice Polytone will help your sound too. But it’s you, the amp and the guitar in the woodshed that is going to make it all come together.
Good Luck.
Joe D

A valid and important point. You can make a crap guitar sound half decent thru a good amp, but conversely make an amazing guitar sound like shyte thru a crap amp. Big part of the equation this.

If you’re fretting (pun intended) over a replacement pickup in that ‘67, but gonna plug it into a Gorilla GG20, it doesn’t matter what is screwed onto the top. It could be a real deal PAF...

OP....I don’t recall seeing it mentioned...what are you going to plug the (as now) mystery ES-175 into?


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[christianm77]

Hi all,
Need some recommendations for my final two options. The first being an all original clean 1980 Gibson ES-175D with an unoriginal Gibson case for about 2 grand. The second is a 1967 Gibson ES-175D for 2 grand too but it has replaced tuners and a replaced neck pickup which is a Duncan 57 I think. It also was refretted and cleaned. I'm going to try them both out at the different sellers. If you had to get it online, which would you choose? Does the 67 give a more vintage sound? Trying to aim for Joe Pass's sound. Which on would hold value better?

Thanks

Are you in a position to try these instruments?

I have a ‘68 175D - I love it, although the neck is very narrow and takes getting used to. Sonically it might surprise you if you are used to typical laminate archtops with set pickups - it’s very bright and airy sounding. I think it suits my playing.

Afaik later 175s are more to the taste of some players. Certainly the modern, Henry j era Gibson archtops I’ve tried seem to be built like bricks in general, not so much resonance. It’s fair enough, they are by and large electric guitars (except in the case of the mind boggling pure ‘acoustic’ L5 - no idea what that guitar is for.) Better for loud playing, and probably more sustain.

That said I would probably consider swapping my guitar for a nice 1950s 125 - those guitars are often wonderful, and I think under your budget. It is a p90 but I don’t care.

[christianm77]

Tbh I don’t think I would countenance buying an old guitar unless I tried it first.

[christianm77]

Ok, but I'm kind of worried about the duncan 57 pickup on the 67 because I'm worried about not getting that classic Gibson 175 vintage tone.

Pass on it then. The thing I like best about my 68 is the pickups. (The thing I like least are the original tuners though lol....)

Of course if you really want the joe pass sound, turn up without your amp ;-)

[christianm77]

Re the 1980, Kreisberg plays a Norlin era 175. I think you just have to try these guitars.

[christianm77]

You mentioned the bridge pickup only has been swapped for a duncan 57, so technically the neck pickup is still a Gibson which is what is used in Jazz primarily...Chances are you won't even use the bridge pup ever unless you target a more modern Methenesque tone or some Steve Howe rock

The 175 bridge pickup is legit badass for funk. That’s what the early Meters stuff was recorded on. With flats I reckon, though I could be wrong.

[christianm77]

OP, are you in a position to try either of these instruments or are they on the other side of the country?

[savofenno]

I think Joe Pass had his best tone when he played Ibanez JP20 or D`Angelico, as heard from all his records and videos/films i know. Not bad with 175 of course!

[christianm77]

No votes for the jazzmaster then? ;-)