How to get the tone I'm looking for out of my gear?

[swimxgood]

Pretty much up until about six months ago I've shaped my collection of equipment around the genre I was playing, which without getting off track was definitely not jazz. Of the gear between my roommate and I, I've got access to a MIM early 2000's strat, a MIC Telecaster modern player, and a j mascis signature squier jazzmaster running into a fender hot rod deluxe IV. Playing and practicing jazz specifically I'm usually on the tele (neck pick up) with no other effects chain into the amp, but no matter how hard I try and dial in something in the vein of Wes Montgomery, I still end up too far on the tinny/banjo-y side. Am I missing something on my amp's EQ? Is there a pedal chain that would help dial this is?

Any advice is appreciated, I'm still relatively new to the genre and I'm looking for a base to start building my own tone, by starting with someone's I definitely enjoy. I was going to try out flatwound strings on the telecaster, but I'll be honest I don't know enough about them being that I've used roundwound my entire playing career.

thanks in advance

[Woody Sound]

You're in a good place here, join the club.

[vintagelove]

No bright switch!!!
bass5ish
mid8
treb4

neck pickup

flatwounds

[Gramps]

On guitar, (neck pu) try turning volume down and roll off highs with guitars tone control. (as you turn down volume on guitar compensate by turning up your amp)

Might help.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

No bright switch!!!
bass5ish
mid8
treb4

neck pickup

flatwounds

I like flatwounds, but I know some jazz guitarists push back against them. Still, it's worth a try.

[Barcia]

try 12s flatwounds! 5:02 on video:

[Jim Soloway]

Heavy strings, a wound G and a lot of flesh in your attack. I also think that no amount of gear will get you there unless you have the attack down so expect to be doing a lot of work on your right hand technique.

[neatomic]

work with that mascis jazzmaster...it doesnt have the standard jazzmaster pickups..they are more like p90's...p90s are great for jazz...try a set of pure nickel rounds on it...gauge of your choice....and use the neck only posiiton..those dials and switch on top

using a thicker pick helps too


have fun

cheers

[dlew919]

I’d also suggest using that telecaster wisely. Check out those Tim lerch videos. Neck pickup, tone wound back to about 7, clean amp, treble rolled off. Use your thumb.

Practice.

Let us know how you go.


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[swimxgood]

you guys have been a gigantic help so far, the tele on the neck pick up and the jazzmaster as well with the right amp settings is getting me where I wanna be for sure. I started to tool around with the reverb knob a bit on the hot rod and I've finally got I think what I'm looking for. I was under the impression that the onboard reverb for anything other than the Deluxe reverb wasn't good (serves me right for believing amateur musicians at bar jam)

thanks again, I'm very glad I decided to ask instead of guessing

[Jonathan0996]

There's lots of good advice here, but I'll be a contrarian. Really good jazz players can break all the gear-related rules and still get a good jazz sound. So much of the sound is in your hands. I'd suggest spending some time each day playing unplugged. Try to get a good sound that way. Lighten up your right hand technique and get a smooth, consistent attack. Develop a flow. Try to milk out some sustain and vibrato with your left hand. Get all that sounding really good and it will be easy to find a good plugged-in sound.

[rpjazzguitar]

Bearing in mind that it's hard to sound like Wes, even with the same gear ...

But, that said, I think Wes' sound may require a humbucker. Single coil pickups can sound terrific for jazz, but nailing Wes' sound will be difficult. I don't know if it's possible on single coil. Thick strings and careful EQ might help.

The only person I've ever heard sound just like Wes, live, was playing an L5 on some of Wes' own lines. I've heard great jazz tone from all kinds of guitars, but the only two who sounded just like Wes (who I heard live) were Wes and the guy I mentioned, both playing L5s.

[rio]

Welcome to the club where we wish we sounded like Wes. For normal beings this is impossible but it’s good to have a reference point. If you really wanted to get that it would be heavy flatwounds, played with the thumb on an L5. Even then, I have an L5 and it gets me closer but will never be the same sound he got. Which is probably for the best since it would be boring if everyone who lives Wes’ tone sounded like him (it would be a majority of jazz guitarists I imagine).

Now of course that doesn’t really matter since we can get good tone, even though it isn’t going to sound just like Wes. Flatwounds are not at all required for a good jazz sound but if you haven’t used them it might be nice to try them so you can make the decision yourself. I would try Thomastik Infeld Swings, a .012 gauge set. Strings 6 through 3 are lighter than other brands. I also like GHS for an old school flatwound sound and they also have a set of .012s where the wound strings are lighter than usual. You’ll probably see Chromes too, made by Daddario but they are brighter than other flats. Not the worst thing in the world and they sound good on some guitars (imo) but I wouldn’t suggest them as your first flats due to the brightness and also that the lower strings are heavier. Transitioning from light strings (what gauge do you use now?) will be easier with a balanced set like Thomastiks.

What pick do you use and where do you pick (at the neck pickup, between the pickups, closer to the bridge)? That has a huge influence on your sound and often any plinky, thin tone issues can be fixed by adjusting where you are picking, the type of pick you use and also perhaps the pick angle.

I had a modern player Tele and it was just fine for jazz so I would start with that one. Getting a full hollowbody archtop will get you closer to the tone you are looking for but Telecasters are fantastic jazz guitars.

As for the amp, it will be quiet but once you get a good sound unplugged then you can work on translating that through your amp. Fender amps aren’t always as plug and play friendly as amps like Henriksen or Polytone but they are iconic and sound great. How you EQ it depends largely on how you play and what guitar you use so I can’t give you any blanket recommendations. Try some unorthodox things too to experiment. I might be remembering incorrectly but I believe grant green maxed out the mids and rolled off the treble and bass. But if you are getting a sound you don’t like from the guitar then it won’t sound like you want from the amp.

Make sure you don’t fall into the trap of rolling off all of the treble from the tone knob of your guitar. That is often a rookie mistake or something non jazz players do to try to approximate what they think of a “jazz tone”. When you hear Wes and so many other iconic jazz guitarists the sound is actually quite bright. Anything can sound good so I’m not trying to knock it but I do think that as a new jazz player it is more important to try to get your sound without making it sound like a pillow is in front of your amp (so please don’t be offended if anyone here does roll the tone down all the way on their guitar). If you would like a little darker sound the. Put your volume knob on 7. Rolling back the volume on the guitar will also take out some of the highs.

Edit: for reference here are a couple of examples. I’m nothing special but I wanted to put these since I know exactly what my setup was at the time. .012 gauge Thomastik Bebops (round wounds), tone at 10, volume around 7 (I think, this was a while back but that is usually where I put it) on the Tele and the L5 is, I think, 10 on both volume and tone. You can hear the difference between the solid and hollow body (I haven’t recorded with the Tele much so I know it doesn’t help much that one is a ballad and the other is fast but that’s what I have as an example) but that’s what I have where I know I was using a Fender amp. EQ on the amp would have been between 4-6 for treble, mids and bass. Hopefully the examples will be helpful and maybe some kind of starting point in terms of matching up the settings with the sound and illustrating the difference between solid and hollow (and hopefully that your Tele will make a good jazz guitar).

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[oldane]

But, that said, I think Wes' sound may require a humbucker. Single coil pickups can sound terrific for jazz, but nailing Wes' sound will be difficult. I don't know if it's possible on single coil.

Oh, but it is possible. Wes himself used guitars with single coils on his early Pacific records, both P90 and "Alnico Staples" (on a 1950s L5). If I remember correctly, "The incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montogmery" (the Riverside album with the famous West Coast Blues) was done with a borrowed 175 with a P90.

[cosmic gumbo]

Don't forget, a big part of Wes' tone also came from using his thumb...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Don't forget, a big part of Wes' tone also came from using his thumb...

Yes, if we are talking about getting close to his sound, why are we mentioning picks?

[pauln]

I always recommend trying this first...

- Guitar tones full up, volume a bit down like "7"
- Plug into the lower gain input on the amp if it has one (Fender, #2 input)
- Amp tones for treble and bass full down (really!), middle full up (this is closest to "flat" on Fender and most other tone stacks)

This is a good starting point because what you hear is the sound of the guitar least altered.

This is actually the way I setup for performance... it is a very pleasant "blending in" kind of sound from which emerges a beautiful solo tone with just a little more firmness from the right hand.

You may find that you like this starting point right away without further adjustment... keep in mind that your tone heard by the audience is always a bit more vivid (more bass and treble) than it sounds to yourself on stage. It takes faith to grasp that what may sound dull and thud-like to you actually sounds nice, bright, and clear out front (and it may take some experience to learn to hear yourself if you are used to depending on a bright sounding tone on stage).

[pauln]

Yes, if we are talking about getting close to his sound, why are we mentioning picks?

... waiting for someone to market a flesh covered pick ...

[50Hz]

I've played the JMJM and remember it being perfectly serviceable for a jazzy tone.

Listen to what the seasoned folks on here say, and I'll just reiterate that beefy strings and right hand tech go a long way.

[Chazmo]

When I first started playing jazz guitar, all I had was a Stratocaster. My teacher was amazed at the tone I was able to coax out of it and for years, even after I started playing archtops, he introduced me as "the guy who can get a great jazz tone, even out of a Stratocaster!"

Here are some tips I picked up early on to get a jazz tone on any guitar:

Right hand plays close to the neck--even right over the neck is okay.

A heavy pick helps. You can use the rounded side of the pick to get a warmer tone or the sharp point for better definition.

No offense to anyone, I have never been able to get a good jazz tone with the guitar tone turned full on. I usually turn the tone knob all the way down to begin with and increase it until I get just the right amount of treble or high end with good definition. It usually winds up being about 5-7 on the dial, depending on the guitar. Same with the guitar volume knob. I turn it up just enough to get a usable volume with a good tone. Usually winds up being 5-10 on the dial, depending on the guitar.

Good solid state amps designed for jazz to begin with, like Polytone, Henricksen, etc. sound good basically flat--that is all EQ knobs straight up--and then seasoned to taste with minor cuts and boosts for bass, mid, and treble.

On some amps, especially Fenders, it helps to cut bass and treble and then boost mids until things warm up, especially higher notes on the 1st (E) string.

To get a good clean tone, I usually start with master volume on an amp about halfway and turn up the individual channel gain until I get a usable volume with good tone. If that's too loud, I turn the master down a bit to get a usable overall volume. Sometimes the gain and master are about equal, sometimes not. It depends on the amp. Single volume amps are simpler. I start all the way off and turn up until I get a usable volume. I have found most amps, especially solid state, get kind of shrill if the volume is turned up more than halfway. Some players may like the gain (channel volume) higher and the master volume lower to get a little "dirt" or usable distortion for their tone.

I hope that helps.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

... waiting for someone to market a flesh covered pick ...

Million ^H^H^H^H Thousand dollar idea: prosthetic thumb "pick" shaped like Wes's thumb.

[Jim Soloway]

No offense to anyone, I have never been able to get a good jazz tone with the guitar tone turned full on. I usually turn the tone knob all the way down to begin with and increase it until I get just the right amount of treble or high end with good definition. It usually winds up being about 5-7 on the dial, depending on the guitar. Same with the guitar volume knob. I turn it up just enough to get a usable volume with a good tone. Usually winds up being 5-10 on the dial, depending on the guitar.

My approach is pretty similar plus I'm also picking over the end of the fingerboard.

[rpjazzguitar]

My tips for getting good jazz tone out of a Stratocaster:

Replace the neck pickup with a humbucker like a Lil 59.

Lower the pickup.

Try different picks for sound. I use a Golden Gate Mandolin pick for that reason.

Process the sound for lead playing. That could mean: more bands of EQ, addition of an octave lower with a harmonizer, harmonizer set on zero (you'd think this would do nothing, but that's not what happens).

Use a very warm sounding amp.

This doesn't turn a Stratocaster into an archtop, but it gets you closer.

I did jazz gigs on a Strat copy for several years (with all of these tricks at various times) and nobody ever complained.

[yebdox]

Using your thumb with the tone rolled off to 2 or 3 can make a huge difference in generating a Wes-like tone, even on a single coil Tele or strat. Something about those high frequency transients when the flesh leaves the string that you don't get with a pick, which will sound darker at the same tone settings. Mess with it and see!

[Jabberwocky]

Million ^H^H^H^H Thousand dollar idea: prosthetic thumb "pick" shaped like Wes's thumb.

Pick one!