Carved archtop under 2,000

[rdwhitti]

My teacher found an Eastman AR805CE (carved with a floating pickup) locally from a dealer for $1200 used in great condition and he loves it. I have an AR403CE (laminate with inset pickup) and it is fantastic too for what I wanted.

[khanon701]

I was going to make a similar thread, but since this one's already here Ill ask here.

I'm in a similar situation, I'm looking to trade up from my Ibanez EW20ZWE-NT flattop to a used archtop. I've been noticing that it doesn't play quite as well as I'd like (it's set up well, so it would take a lot work to improve it further) which makes complicated playing and fine articulation a little more difficult than it needs to be, and while it's got an awesome deep tone, it's not the most nuanced and tends to lose a lot of detail in chords. So I'm shooting for better playability, I'll be doing a lot of acoustic playing, and it'll be used for rock and folk as well as jazz. I'm obviously not expecting the kind of volume I get from my flattop now, but I don't want it to be overly quiet either. I'm trying to stay below $1200ish, and even that's pushing it. I'm not really a fan of the "blingy" archtops, and I'm finding myself really drawn to Eastman and Peerless. I really dig the clean look and the wood tailpiece and pickguard. I've heard complaints about Eastmans sounding too bright, but I think that brightness would work for me. Two big things I'm considering are price and body size. The ar503ce's 16"x2 9/16" body and set-in pickup concern me since I'll be treating this more as an acoustic, although the price is great. Going up to something like an ar605ce or ar805ce you get a 16"x3 1/4" body, but the price goes up and it'll be harder to find one I could afford. Peerless have a 17"x3" body, and the Jazz Artist Series ones come in around the same price as an ar503ce, but then I might have to settle for laminate or non-flamed maple. I also really like Eastman's classic finish, but I've heard people say it's really poor quality (I think it was something along the lines of "high school student's first shop class project")

text block over. opinions?

[rdwhitti]

I was going to make a similar thread, but since this one's already here Ill ask here.

I'm in a similar situation, I'm looking to trade up from my Ibanez EW20ZWE-NT flattop to a used archtop. I've been noticing that it doesn't play quite as well as I'd like (it's set up well, so it would take a lot work to improve it further) which makes complicated playing and fine articulation a little more difficult than it needs to be, and while it's got an awesome deep tone, it's not the most nuanced and tends to lose a lot of detail in chords. So I'm shooting for better playability, I'll be doing a lot of acoustic playing, and it'll be used for rock and folk as well as jazz. I'm obviously not expecting the kind of volume I get from my flattop now, but I don't want it to be overly quiet either. I'm trying to stay below $1200ish, and even that's pushing it. I'm not really a fan of the "blingy" archtops, and I'm finding myself really drawn to Eastman and Peerless. I really dig the clean look and the wood tailpiece and pickguard. I've heard complaints about Eastmans sounding too bright, but I think that brightness would work for me. Two big things I'm considering are price and body size. The ar503ce's 16"x2 9/16" body and set-in pickup concern me since I'll be treating this more as an acoustic, although the price is great. Going up to something like an ar605ce or ar805ce you get a 16"x3 1/4" body, but the price goes up and it'll be harder to find one I could afford. Peerless have a 17"x3" body, and the Jazz Artist Series ones come in around the same price as an ar503ce, but then I might have to settle for laminate or non-flamed maple. I also really like Eastman's classic finish, but I've heard people say it's really poor quality (I think it was something along the lines of "high school student's first shop class project")

text block over. opinions?

It is certainly not as loud acoustically as a flat top, but I have been quite surprised at how loud my AR403CE is acoustically. When I first got it it took a lot of getting used to the sound because the acoustic volume while playing amplified was a strange experience, like I had two different sounds competing at once. I would expect the carved top on the 503 would be even louder. If you get a change go play one and see what you think.

[Greentone]

Funny, archtops were invented to be louder than flattop guitars. The ones made from the 20s-40s were louder.

Then the electric guitar caught on and the need for acoustic volume became unimportant.

Old Epiphones are stoopid loud.

[sgosnell]

Archtop guitars were developed because more volume was needed. Archtops can be very loud, but the player usually doesn't hear the volume well, because they're directional. The audience will hear it, though. My Eastman T145, 15" bout, 1.75" depth, is louder than my Ovation and Gibson J45. It doesn't sound as good because of the lack of depth, and the bass is especially lacking acoustically, but it's certainly loud enough. A carved solid spruce top is the driver for that. The finish is thin and somewhat brittle, but it's far beyond a high school shop project. A thick poly finish inhibits acoustic tone and volume, while a thin finish allows it to come through. There ain't no free lunch. You don't need a huge body to equal a flat-top's volume, and don't be confused by the volume you hear while playing. Builders are starting to install sound ports in the sides to allow the player to hear the archtop better, but they're still uncommon. Have someone in front of you listen, or have someone play it while you listen in order to hear the real volume.

[Greentone]

You don't need a huge body to equal a flat-top's volume, and don't be confused by the volume you hear while playing.

TRUTH! I once took my '38 16" Gibson L50 to a singer-songwriter/flatpicker jam, instead of my usual Guild D-50. The other guys, all sporting Martin D-18, D-28, Taylors, etc., scratched their heads and/or smirked. Later, they all expressed disbelief at how loud the little Gibson was.

Of course, they could hear it better than I could because of the penetrating, directional nature of archtop sound production. One thing was clear, though. The L50 could easily keep up with the fabled "cannons" that the other guys were sporting.

I watched a guy a few years back playing a 30s Epiphone 15" Olympic punch way above his weight playing with two guys with big Martin dreadnaughts at a concert.

Archtops really cut--at least the old ones do.

[deacon Mark]

Just being loud does not make an archtop great. A fully vibrating top and the carving pattern is critical. On really good acoustic archtops you can feel the top almost see it move. To thick and will not give fullest volume and too thin is risky.

I am not a fan of the loud Epi’s as such compared to Gibson Super 400. To my ears a Super 400 from the beginning to the mid 1950’s is hard to beat. A good one is hard to beat. The Dangelicos are in a class themselves and tend to be more refined and focused in sound all over the neck. Going up the neck they do not ping out as loud only, but maintain the rich sound. My 37 is huge in sound but responds to the lightest touch. Over-build guitars tend to need more to do drive the top.

Strombergs do respond to lighter touch but work best when driven harder with strumming. I call them super Epi’s for comparison. 16 inch guitars can be loud and lively but an equivalent 18 should produce more sound if made correct.

Eastman I believe carve pretty decent sound. Heritage does ok but i think a bit stiff. I had a Super Eagle acoustic and it was fine but nothing special. I sold it after 1 month. It was no super 400 and my D’a has spoiled me. Compared to my Campallone the Heritage just was not in the same level of refinement.

i see Gruhn has an 18 inch Anderson for 5k. That is pretty good guitar for the cash would love to get play it. Regardless of what someone says about George Gruhn when he mentions in the listing the guitar sounds good it will. He is a good judge of sound generally. I have spent some time in his shop and with him.

[Greentone]

+1 DM.

I was addressing volume. I agree in general with DM's observations.

The Super 400 sounds superb.

[Barboy07079]

Thanks for the all the sage advice. I live in the LA area, and even here it is tough to find a lot of Archtops to try. Stores with a decent selection tend to be out of my price range. I'm venturing out this weekend to sample Eastman, Heritage, Hofner (if I can find it) and anything Vintage I can get my hands on. It'll take me a while to sell off gear to pay for this, so I'm targeting the SoCal guitar show in August and I'll come back here to check out what might be on offer.

If anyone has a favorite LA area store let me know. I've tried Truetone and McCabe's and I'm planning on hitting Norm's this weekend.

This site is a great resource. You guys have been very generous. Thanks for taking the time!!!

[Greentone]

Norm's will be like walking into the candy store for a kid.

[khanon701]

Thanks for the reassurance. Like I said, I'm not just looking for volume, that's kind of a second to playability and a little bit clearer more nuanced tone. I hadn't thought of archtops being directional, that's something good to keep in mind. I found this video that compares a bunch of archtops unplugged, including a couple I was looking at. I think I prefer the Eastman's sound over the Carlo Robelli/Peerless, but they both sound great. The Epiphone Emporer Regent sounded fantastic too, and I hadn't really considered that one. The Galaxie was amazing for how thin it is, but playability would be a concern there.

I've got band practice in a minute so I'll have a chance to play a Gretsch Streamliner with a similar body size to the thinner Eastmans to get a better idea of volume. Not the best comparison, but it's nice and convenient at least

[Barboy07079]

Thanks for all the advice. In the end I found a 1938 Gibson L12. I’ve tried to attach a picture. I never thought that I’d find a solid wood carved vintage Gibson or Épi in my price range until I stumbled on Carter Vintage guitars in Nashville there are still a couple of vintage Epis on there for under 2000. They have a pretty great selection, and the arch tops seem to go for a little less than what you see on line (in the case of my Gibson, a lot less).

Had the guys at Mcabes here in Santa Monica check it out for me. They gave it a clean bill of health so I highly recommend checking out Carter. They are relatively new so I don’t think people outside of Nashville have caught on to them.

[rpguitar]

A retail shop (and a famous one at that - Nashville is somewhat of a music town sold you an X-braced 30's Gibson for under $2K?! And an L-12 at that, which is right under an L-5? This is normally a $4,000 guitar.

I found it in Google's cache. It has a couple of repaired cracks, which should not alone be responsible for such a price reduction. If this guitar works out, I'd say you got a ridiculous bargain! I owned a 1935 L-12 for a while with the same fairly rare tailpiece. This is a really good acoustic archtop guitar. Be careful making modifications, please.

[Barboy07079]

Yes, I definitely got lucky. Couldn’t find any issues, it was even set up perfectly. Has had a neck reset, but they did a nice job. Very sturdy guitar. Tuners were replaced a long time ago, but that seems really common. I won’t change a thing!

[Hammertone]

A retail shop (and a famous one at that - Nashville is somewhat of a music town sold you an X-braced 30's Gibson for under $2K?! And an L-12 at that, which is right under an L-5? This is normally a $4,000 guitar. I found it in Google's cache. It has a couple of repaired cracks, which should not alone be responsible for such a price reduction. If this guitar works out, I'd say you got a ridiculous bargain! I owned a 1935 L-12 for a while with the same fairly rare tailpiece. This is a really good acoustic archtop guitar. Be careful making modifications, please.

I saw that one on Carter's site and was might tempted, but I alreasy have a '38 L-12, which is a wonderful instrument. In your shoes, I'd retrofit proper-style openback tuners to the guitar, using conversion bushings. Waverly vintage-styl tuners are nicer that the Rotomatics currently on the guitar. Grover 18:1, Gotoh, Schaller: lots of choice. I'd also remove the pickguard if there are any signs of decomposition. In addition to the crack repairs, the guitar sports a replacement bridge - looks like a Teller. Enjoy playing the guitar!

[ThatRhythmMan]

Congrats! That looks like a fantastic guitar, especially at that price!