25.5 Scale 24 Fret Guitar - Good For Jazz?

**Toat** · 04-14-2018, 08:20 AM

Can a 25.5 scale 24 fret guitar ever sound right for straight away jazz in the neck position?

Based on past experience I think these construction characteristics are fundamentally bad for the jazz tone and cant be remedied by woods, pickups, etc. I want to know others opinions.

**Klatu** · 04-14-2018, 08:31 AM

My Hofner Jazzica has those exact specifications, and I just love that guitar to death.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-14-2018, 08:36 AM

I think you can play jazz on anything.

**ptchristopher3** · 04-14-2018, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Toat

Can a 25.5 scale 24 fret guitar ever sound right for straight away jazz in the neck position?

Based on past experience I think these construction characteristics are fundamentally bad for the jazz tone and cant be remedied by woods, pickups, etc. I want to know others opinions.

Of course it can. Are you concerned about the position of the neck PU when combined with an 24 fret FB?

**ptchristopher3** · 04-14-2018, 10:07 AM

Here is a guy somehow making do with a neck PU closer to the bridge than your 25.5” scale and 24 fret guitar would have. Somehow the player manages a jazz sound.

Diana Krall - All or Nothing at All - Video Dailymotion

Around 1:45 the struggle for tone begins.

**Toat** · 04-14-2018, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by ptchristopher3

Here is a guy somehow making do with a neck PU closer to the bridge than your 25.5” scale and 24 fret guitar would have. Somehow the player manages a jazz sound.

Diana Krall - All or Nothing at All - Video Dailymotion

Around 1:45 the struggle for tone begins.

Sounds a bit thin and treblely for my taste

**ptchristopher3** · 04-14-2018, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Toat

Sounds a bit thin and treblely for my taste

Well then you have some more data to support your view.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-14-2018, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Toat

Sounds a bit thin and treblely for my taste

Amps have knobs, these days.

**ronjazz** · 04-14-2018, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Toat

Sounds a bit thin and treblely for my taste

you need better speakers. nice, fat tone in lines and chords.

**Toat** · 04-14-2018, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Amps have knobs, these days.

I get it, I'm just telling you that I've had a guitar with these specs and no amount of "dialing out" can delete what is inherent with certain guitar design factors. Perhaps your experience is different.

**BigMikeinNJ** · 04-14-2018, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Toat

Sounds a bit thin and treblely for my taste

My goodness young man... Anthony Wilson on a Byrdland sounds thin and treblely to you...
That show on dvd and the movie CRAZY motivated me to buy a Byrdland and I love it...

Different strokes for different folks I guess...

Big

**Toat** · 04-14-2018, 11:26 AM

Also I'm not sure why a Gibson instrument is being linked when that shorter scale will make a difference as well. 25.5 scale 22 fret is telecaster territory and IMO can be fine, but 25.5 scale 24 fret to me is the irreconcilable point. It's just unfortunate because there are a lot of beautiful and tempting instruments that are only made in 25.5 scale 24 fret.

Also this is a good baseline of the tone I am after:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEyO4fd01HI

**ptchristopher3** · 04-14-2018, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Toat

Also I'm not sure why a Gibson instrument is being linked when that shorter scale will make a difference as well. 25.5 scale 22 fret is telecaster territory and IMO can be fine, but 25.5 scale 24 fret to me is the irreconcilable point. It's just unfortunate because there are a lot of beautiful and tempting instruments that are only made in 25.5 scale 24 fret.

It was linked because the issue at hand is the distance between the neck PU and the bridge when you look at a 24 fret neck vs. a 22 (or fewer such as on an L5).

THe Byrdland was just there as a quick example of a neck PU that is quite close to the bridge yet (to some) has no trouble producing a jazz sound.

But no matter. I understand your view. Just best to avoid guitars that do not please.

**Jim Soloway** · 04-14-2018, 11:59 AM

Put me in the camp that does not believe that all tonal anomalies can be dialed out with tone controls on either the guitar or the amp (I can think of a few amps that I absolutely could not dial in even with my favorite guitar). So it may well be that you found a guitar with a tonal hump or dip so broad and deep that it cannot be overcome. That being said, a guitar is the sum of ALL it's parts and without a serious deconstruction it's hard to know which single feature or combination of features is causing the issue. It should also be noted that opinions here are based in personal results and observations of results by others. Player technique has a strong impact on tonal response so if your playing technique is a significant outlier in some way (as mine is), then many of those observations may not apply to you. Ultimately, the real answer is always to try enough guitars with the problematic tonal response and see if they replicate the problem. If they do, then it really doesn't matter what everone says, your observations will be don't FOR YOU ... and really that's all that matters.

BTW, I say all of this very much out of first hand experience. There are a lot of guitars, amps and set ups that common logic in the broader jazz guitar community consider standard that I either can't or won't play. That doesn't make the community wrong. It just means that my needs are outside the norm. I accept and embrace that, but it took me a long time to get there.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-14-2018, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Toat

I get it, I'm just telling you that I've had a guitar with these specs and no amount of "dialing out" can delete what is inherent with certain guitar design factors. Perhaps your experience is different.

I'm not saying you can dial out inherent characteristics. I'm saying, if the tone sounds "a little too trebly" there's a knob for that.

Why are you asking a question if in your mind you know the answer?

**pingu** · 04-14-2018, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Toat

Sounds a bit thin and treblely for my taste

Hi Toat

You and I got waaay different taste man ... !

Which is cool , takes every kind of people
to make the world-go-round

To me that is just pure jazz tone right there
in fact It's definitive ....

Good luck with the search man

**mr. beaumont** · 04-14-2018, 12:36 PM

Really, toat, I suppose I'd need to know what your benchmark jazz tone is...I mean, if it's Joe Pass on Joy Spring, well, you're not going to match that with a 25.5" scale 24 fret guitar.

But I maintain, I can get a tone that works for jazz out of almost anything, certainly from a 25.5" scale 24 fret guitar with a neck humbucker, and I'm nobody special.

**rpjazzguitar** · 04-14-2018, 01:21 PM

I have understood that the logic of having the pickup where the 24th fret would be is that the pickup senses the string under a node. And, that's supposed to sound good.

But, it's only true for open strings. If your style does not include using open strings, then I don't see why it would matter that the pickup is exactly under the node. If you're playing a G and not an open E, would it sound better if the pickup was where the 27th fret would be?

**Toat** · 04-14-2018, 01:50 PM

It's seems like people will always get butt-hurt here when people disagree. Apparently my view is against the consensus hive mind.

To answer your questions: I would consider Pat Martino, Adam Rogers or Pat Metheny to have the kind of tone I appreciate. Here is a snipet of my personal tone, and if you know what melody that is I'm still trying to figure it out.

And the argument that pickup placement only applies to open strings makes no sense when you consider that a neck and bridge humbucker will sound consistently different regardless of the position being played in.

**Jim Soloway** · 04-14-2018, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I have understood that the logic of having the pickup where the 24th fret would be is that the pickup senses the string under a node. And, that's supposed to sound good.

But, it's only true for open strings. If your style does not include using open strings, then I don't see why it would matter that the pickup is exactly under the node. If you're playing a G and not an open E, would it sound better if the pickup was where the 27th fret would be?

It makes a difference just by virtue of being a different distance from the bridge, just like there is a difference between a bridge, middle and neck pickup on a Strat even if they all use the same pickup. It's goin to be louder and brighter than if you move it forward an inch or so. That's why the pickup placement is part of what makes a 175 a 175.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-14-2018, 02:49 PM

If we're talking current Metheny/Martino, along with Rogers, I'd say you like things dark. The tone you have in your clip there seems along those lines, what are you playing there?

**BigMikeinNJ** · 04-14-2018, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Toat

It's seems like people will always get butt-hurt here when people disagree. Apparently my view is against the consensus hive mind.

To answer your questions: I would consider Pat Martino, Adam Rogers or Pat Metheny to have the kind of tone I appreciate. Here is a snipet of my personal tone, and if you know what melody that is I'm still trying to figure it out.

And the argument that pickup placement only applies to open strings makes no sense when you consider that a neck and bridge humbucker will sound consistently different regardless of the position being played in.

Butt hurt for going against the consensus hive mind ??? Kid, 30 years ago I'd have wanted some of what you're smoking. But I could f-ing care less... If you like a certain tone find the guitar that supplies is and rock on... Good for you.

It'd be like me saying I like my NY Strip RARE... and my cuban cigars aged and having people tell me "oh no man, you gotta have THIS or that one, you don't know jack"...

You like what you like. YOU ASKED, check the title of your tread kid... You asked...

BYE...

Big

**Toat** · 04-14-2018, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

If we're talking current Metheny/Martino, along with Rogers, I'd say you like things dark. The tone you have in your clip there seems along those lines, what are you playing there?

It's an Eastman ER1 into Henriksen head with 8" Eminence beta.

I guess my takeaway from the thread is that others have broader tonal taste but for me I need to be careful. It just sucks because I'm GASing for a headless Kiesel. I've been down this road before with Carvin/kiesel and it just ends in disappointment. Damn beautiful instruments.

Thanks all.

**Jim Soloway** · 04-14-2018, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Toat

It's an Eastman ER1 into Henriksen head with 8" Eminence beta.

I guess my takeaway from the thread is that others have broader tonal taste but for me I need to be careful. It just sucks because I'm GASing for a headless Kiesel. I've been down this road before with Carvin/kiesel and it just ends in disappointment. Damn beautiful instruments.

Thanks all.

That's a much different question. A solid body (or chambered body) plus a headless configuration is going to give the guitar certain character regardless of the number of frets. Add to that the thin neck profile, the graphite rods, and the 24 frets and it's going to be hard to get to the tonal zone you're talking about. If you really like the Kiesel headless guitars then my suggestion is let the guitar dictate the tonal direction and find a way to adapt. You can choose some options to get closer but you'll never make it something it's not. And I say that as someone who's been considering one ever since they switched to the Hipshot hardware.

**Spook410** · 04-14-2018, 05:30 PM

Nobody is particularly concerned. We just know there are lot of people playing very good music on Telecasters and Strats and everything else with scale lengths of 24.75, 25, and 25.5 with sundry pickup types and positions. Though actually, the guitar cited does have the pickup awfully far back with the 24 fret neck. Still think you can get a dark midrange sound from anything humbucker with a parametric EQ (woody, acoustic is hard, midrange isn't). However, if you think something may suck and you can't try it out, seems kind of risky.