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Since you dropped his name and since we were also discussing Wes:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Hmmm... I'm at work and can't find a ruler. I'm a slap-happy 6'2" L-5 player. I wonder how tall Freddie Green was?
Ralph Gleason: “Would it suit your temperament to sit there like Freddie Green and not take solos?”
Wes Montgomery: “It would be alright, but I don't know that many chords. I'd be loaded (wealthy) if I knew that many. I'd probably go join a (big) band and play rhythm, man, because he's (Freddie) not just playing chords, he's playing a LOT of chords.”
That's right up there in compliments with Benson's statement regarding Farlow !
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10-20-2009 05:32 PM
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This is interesting. I am 6'0", with long fingers but I guess small hands. Dispassionate research reveals that my measurement (taken on a wooden ruler with a metal edge at room temperature) is 8.25." And I definitely prefer the shorter scale. Muscle memory determines what we find comfortable, I suspect.
I suspect that figure is not a determinant of comfort, since every bass I've ever played has had a 34" scale. Is that relevant? I do hand stretches on the bass, but don't play chords. Obviously I use a different technique on bass.
Bill Wyman, a person with small hands, spent his career with the Stones looking for the perfect short scale bass. My conclusion that his preference was due rather to his reach, than his hand size. I remember a long-ago girl friend who really wanted to play my bass: she was a compulsive tuner-turner and her arms were too short for her to reach the knobs. Come to think of it, she played an Ovation round back, so I should probably not include her in any impartial sample. Forget that I mentioned her.
I have mentioned the Samick L5 copy I was given. It is uncomfortable (it seems to me) for for the body thickness than the scale length, which I could adapt to. I had a Strat a number of years ago that I played regularly for a stretch, and recorded with, it never fit me. Once I got a Gibson I realized that I specifically did not like the feel of the scale length.
Randy, this is an area rich in speculative possibilities -- this could carry us well into November.
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Oh sure, this could be s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d and it's important, isn't it ?
Yeah, I think that your discomfort with the L-5 copy has to be due to the body thickness (although L-5's aren't really all that thick, compared to many accoustic guitars especially).
Back in the day, the three guitars that I felt I had to have (the "bar guitars" that is) were the Ovation Custom Legend, the old Strat and the Carvin DC-150. I traded off on those guitars so often during a set that one would have thought they were hot potatoes.
Although they are about as different as guitars can be, in feel and sound, I never had any problem switching them and I'm a small person. The Ovation has a 25.5 scale and is VERY fat. The Strat has the same scale but is very SKINNY. The Carvin is LP-ish in every respect, configuration, weight and scale.
I frequently trade off between the L-4 and the L-5 these days. And it's weird, the difference is SO distinctive between the two instruments. The L-4CES (short scale) encourages me to play fast and do major ninth stretches that I can't do on the L-5 except above the fifth or sixth frets.
And now that I've written this down, I realize how very silly I was to have conducted that L-5 survey. After years of standing on a stage with that watermelon of a long-scale Ovation hanging around my neck, you'd think I would have KNOWN that the L-5 wasn't going to be a problem
But as my wife frequently points out, I have to do things the way that I have to do things. (And it's not necessarily a straight line from start to finish, LOL.)
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So what's the big deal with straight lines? You're talking to an ex-road racer, after all. Show me a car designed with straight lines and I'll show you an Edsel. Originally Posted by randyc
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I don't think that she meant curves. She perceives that some of my paths could have been described by shapes like "T", "X" and "&".
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Don't forget "8" and "@"
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Well I did forget but be assured that SHE hasn't.
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I like to call it, "taking the scenic route."
Whether you had planned to or not.
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Well, I don't have an L5, but I used to have an L4. But anyway, my hand measurement per your method comes to 8.5". I'm 5'7" and weigh 160 lbs. (That's it - I'm not telling anything more!). Even with relatively small hands, I prefer the 25.5-inch scale, but I don't have any discomfort when playing a guitar with a 24.75" scale. I'm not very comfortable playing Dreadnaughts or 17" archtops, though.
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Here we go! Originally Posted by randyc
BDLH: If you don't mind, would you make that measurement, at your convenience, and get it to me. Also, on the scale of 0 to 10, how well do you think you play your L-5 versus other guitars. NOT how well you actually play it or what others think and NOT what you'd rather be playing
height: 6'2"
hand: all I can find is a metric ruler! Ha! 27cm = 10.6"
Garsh, I didn't think my hands were big.
Guitars: I play my L-5 twice as much as any other guitar, so I'll call that 7 out of 10 (7 versus 3).
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My height is perfect for my weight, which varies.
I had dinner with a good friend with an inquiring mind, and she suggested you examine photos of Wes Montgomery and determine the relevant dimensions of his hands, given that you know the scale length of the instruments he is playing.
She also asked if Wes was a smoker, and if the heart covered a burn; or whether the heart was a gift from someone, and he wanted to remember the person on the guitar. She dismissed the cover-the-switch-hole theory, and noted that Wes felt his guitars were nothing more than tools. The AHA idea did not appeal to her.
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Couple of good points there. Yes, Wes was a smoker, he had one burning constantly when playing. Her theory fits the weird location of that heart, sorta ... he didn't have that Keith Richard thing of putting his butt under the 6th string on the headstock. I suppose that he could have dropped a burning ash on the nitro finish, which isn't notable for durability. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Despite the oft-quoted thing about his guitar being a tool, one can observe the care/respect for the instrument that Wes exhibited at any of his live performances (at least the ones that are available to me at my library - all are performed with the L-5).
No need to measure his hands or anything else IMO, we are fairly confident - from visual and audible observations - that he was satisfied with his instrument. To my knowledge, he was never seen with anything other than the L-5 or his ES-175 ... I may estimate those measurements anyway, just to give my obsession something to nibble on.
The interesting question to me still, is that L-4 with one pickup. I can see that there may be a reason or two that this isn't readily anwerable but it's always fascinated me, being an acknowledged equipment geek. (NOT just musical instruments/amplifiers, I have extensive collections of some unlikely things.)
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Surprise ! You too are squarely in the "L-5 demographic". I think that you already knew that, though Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Tom, like me, you are not a predictably L-5 kind of guy. Why has your L-4 gone astray ? Originally Posted by Tom Karol
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I read somewhere quoting Miles as saying that he judged a musician by how he handled his instrument when he wasn't playing it. No doubt there's something to that. I know I cringe when I see someone treating their guitar (or bass, or whatever) with less than respect. Originally Posted by randyc
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"Why has your L-4 gone astray?"
It didn't go astray - I did! It was a '66 that I bought in '73 and sold in '97. The pickup I had installed when I bought it - a DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1100 - is now worth more alone than what I sold the guitar for!
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Just noticed your signature. The musician's credo!
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I'm sorry, Tom, didn't mean to resurrect a painful memory. I have a few of those unhappy memories, too. Originally Posted by Tom Karol
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Thanks for the sympathy, but I don't think of it as a painful memory - more like a learning experience, just one in a long line of bonehead deals I've done over the years! My son has my '76 000-28 locked up in a closet, so I don't go and do something equally stupid with that!
Signature - yeah, that's a good one, isn't it? I 'borrowed' it from someone on another board somewhere!
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OK, now YOU did it Tom: summoned up one of those painful memories that I thought I'd put behind me. 1969, sold my 1937 000-18 to my brother-in-law for $100. (Thought that it was a good deal because I paid $50 for it.)
I'll be consumed with self-loathing for the rest of the day !
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miles "said" a lot of stuff, but in this case--well, he actually said about the way they handle themselves (including the instrument), not necessarily just the instrument. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
remember, miles wanted to play with hendrix, who wasn't exactly nice to his guitars!
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I think you're misconstruing what I said. Jimi Hendrix certainly exhibited a strong relationship with his instruments. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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so you're talking more "careless" than "abusive for the sake of the art?" i get ya.
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Thank you. I was careless, myself. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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On the original question: after close study of Kessel's instrument in stills and video, it seems clear it is in fact an ES-350 from 1947 or '48. These are the only two years the model was built with a single pickup. (Barney himself was off by a year or two in the interview above, as the 350 was not introduced until 1947.) Though the L-7C body is identical in shape and size, the body of Kessel's guitar is fully sunburst on the back and sides, while the L-7 is burst only on top. Also, the tailpiece on Kessel's guitar is gold plated, while the L-7 had nickel hardware only. Finally, the 350 would have been a better conversion choice, as the braces would neither have to be cut nor moved, as they would be on the L-7. And it's quite likely Kessel would have preferred the laminated body of the 350 as it's more feedback resistant, and sturdier against the rigors of the road. As noted above, the dot-inlay ebony fingerboard was added during the conversion.
Hope this helps set the matter to rest, wherever the actual guitar is located today. Cheers!
Joe Vinikow
archtop.com
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