If Your Lowest F is always Sharp or Very Sharp

[sgosnell]

Have you checked then nut to center of the first fret to see if it is the calculated distance based on the Scale Length?

No, I haven't measured the distance from the nut to the first fret, and I don't think I'll bother. I don't see any need, since the guitar plays and intonates well, nor do I see the need for a compensated nut. Some of the inner strings aren't perfectly intonated, but that's because of the bridge. A straight bridge won't allow perfect intonation of all strings, of all gauges. I suppose I could either put on a TOM or have a custom saddle built, but it's not bad enough for me to change anything. All my guitars have the nut slots at the proper height, and tune well enough for my ear. Someone else might hear things differently, but for me a small fraction of a cent isn't perceptible.

[KirkP]

Not sure what you mean but Im not talking about compensation at the nut. I'm just saying that for some physics reason, tuning using the 2nd harmonic (E over 5th fret), the open E reads flat by a few cents. So, when the F is needed, if you don't Squeeze too hard you can have a more in-tune if not exactly in tune, F. Plus I do think the 5th fret, E harm. is the more 'honest' of the two. (disclaimer: I fully realize these conditions might not be found on all guitars). M

I think your terminology for harmonics is incorrect, confusing the discussion. Harmonics are named as follows:
1st = fundamental (open)
2nd = octave (fret 12)
3rd = perfect fifth plus 1 octave (~fret 7)
4th = second octave (~fret 5)
5th = third plus 2 octaves (~fret 4 or 9)
[Edit - deleted one sentence]
Note that the 3rd and 5th harmonics are not in the equal temperament scale, which is why tuning to harmonics can lead to poor intonation.

[lammie200]

...If the octave harmonics don’t intonate with the fundamental, I’d suspect bad strings, a bad tuner, or maybe pickup magnets too close to the strings...

Unless I am totally clueless I suspect that you mean :

...If the octave harmonics don’t intonate with the fundamental after adjusting the bridge position, I’d suspect bad strings, a bad tuner, or maybe pickup magnets too close to the strings...

[Thumpalumpacus]

If you really want to play out of tune, though, tune your guitar to some open cowboy chords--i.e., tune the thirds and fourths to be beatless. The guitar will really play sour out of that first position.

As much as I love Jimi, one thing that drives me nuts about him is how he would often tune onstage to a G major barre at the 3rd fret, when he spent so much time at the tenth fret and above. I always thought that was a driving force behind complaints about his tuning, whammy-bar use notwithstanding.

[KirkP]

Unless I am totally clueless I suspect that you mean :

...If the octave harmonics don’t intonate with the fundamental after adjusting the bridge position, I’d suspect bad strings, a bad tuner, or maybe pickup magnets too close to the strings...

The bridge position doesn’t affect the intonation of harmonics at all. The frets don’t make any difference either. After all, a fretless instrument will have all the same harmonics. Harmonics are simply a result of dividing the string vibrations into equal lengths. The first seven harmonics are illustrated here (from wikipedia).

The bridge and nut positions only control the intonation of fretted notes.

[lammie200]

The bridge position doesn’t affect the intonation of harmonics at all. The frets don’t make any difference either. After all, a fretless instrument will have all the same harmonics. Harmonics are simply a result of dividing the string vibrations into equal lengths. The first seven harmonics are illustrated here (from wikipedia).

The bridge and nut positions only control the intonation of fretted notes.

Yep. What I meant was to take the word "harmonics" out of the sentence as well. My bad.

[KirkP]

...
1. Octave harmonics will always be sharp vs. the fundamental. This effect is typically smaller than what would be noticeable to a guitar player or the tuning equipment we use. But these are always sharper. It has nothing to do perfect vs. tempered intervals.

It is due to the imperfect flexibilty of the string itself. The effect on harmonics being sharp is called inharmonicity.

Please do not confuse this with the difference between a perfect interval and a tempered one.

If we only talk about the octave harmonics (to avoid some confusion), ALL octave harmonics will be sharp vs. the fundamental. We just often do not notice, or do not use equipment that will notice. It is not typically even close to being a practical problem, but we can occasionally do a much better job by understanding it.

It is A HUGE issue on a piano. This is why pianos are stretch tuned. Easy enough to read up in this elsewhere.

Thanks for that. I didn’t realize octave harmonics aren’t perfect on stringed instruments, but it checks out. I’d better quit tuning to my 12th fret harmonics! Doing so will result in the fundamental being flat. That also means the bridge position can’t be accurately set by comparing the fretted octave to a harmonic at the 12th fret.

Here’s a wikipedia page in case someone else wants to read about inharmonicity.
Inharmonicity - Wikipedia

[sgosnell]

That also means the bridge position can’t be accurately set by comparing the fretted octave to a harmonic at the 12th fret.

Perhaps not perfectly accurately, but close enough for jazz. The tiny sharpness is probably too small to be corrected by moving the bridge, because it's not easy to move it that little. Yes, the octave is sharp, but most people can't hear it, and the amount the bridge would need to be changed is infinitesimal. I think setting intonation by the octave and fretted 12th is valid, and close enough that nobody could tell the difference.

[KirkP]

Hi Kirk,

Great to talk with you.

Yeah, we all did “intonation” via matching the 2nd harmonic (12th fret) to the fretted note in days of old.

In practice, the error in doing this is minor. But why be stupid when it seems so unnecessary.

In maybe 1981 or so my girlfriend bought a Mason and Hamlin upright grand piano, so I decided to tune it. I hit up the ace piano tuners at Berklee and got schooled on the basics.

Two lessons:

1. NEVER, EVER tune your girlfriends ancient Mason and Hamlin upright grand piano. What an adventure. Nailed it in the end, but a decidedly intense learning curve.

2. Tuning another instrument is amazingly instructive on aspects of the guitar that we all ignore through ignore-ance.

In my opinion.

If you are ever in the Boston area, expect free beverages on me.

Chris

Likewise if you’re in the Seattle area.
My piano tuner friend has mentioned stretch tuning, but I assumed it was only a minute amount over several octaves, and I didn’t realize the physical basis.

[medblues]

There is also the issue of audio perception versus production of beating when two or more notes are sustained together. My (the?) ear wants to hear sharper at the treble end and flatter at the bass end of the spectrum. This can be problematic when I use open E as a drone for instance. It is worse with an open low B on a 5-string bass (especially short scale).

[princeplanet]

...
1. Octave harmonics will always be sharp vs. the fundamental. This effect is typically smaller than what would be noticeable to a guitar player or the tuning equipment we use. But these are always sharper. It has nothing to do perfect vs. tempered intervals.

It is due to the imperfect flexibilty of the string itself. The effect on harmonics being sharp is called inharmonicity.

....

Correct, however in the real world, when people strike, say, an open low E string, due to it's mass, it's excursion is such that it causes it to read sharper into a tuner than does the octave harmonic. Tuning is player/guitar/the song dependent. In the studio, I tune guitars according to all these parameters and then some (humidity etc). I've seen people barely strike strings when tuning, and then proceed to smash into them when playing, wondering how they can sound out of tune when they just tuned to a tuner

I say make compensations for how, where and what you play. Use a tuner for a reference, but ultimately you must use your ear. You know, like players of continuous pitch instruments have to....

[princeplanet]

Sure, whatever.

People love being the measure of all things. Have at it if it makes you happy.

Absolutely.

? I'm getting the impression you don't agree... You suggesting that people shouldn't be the measure of all things? You mean like trust a one-size-fits-all theory of tuning into a strobe tuner and be done with it?

Why not give science and her machines all the power, and just get them to play the (perfectly intoned) music altogether?

whatever, absolutely...

[ptchristopher3]

I removed the comments about actual strings and actual notes. Seems not a good place for it.

In my view, a superb instrument and setup is what enables musical expression.

I have not seen any Hunger Games movies, so maybe there is a dystopian luthier in there forcing would-be expressive teens to play in tune or something. It the actual world of music I have not noticed such a person.

Best of luck with this.

[princeplanet]

Sorry, I'm just not getting your drift, best of luck with what?

[ptchristopher3]

Sorry to confuse, it was not my intent.

Players of continuous pitch instruments do indeed make corrections. I have heard a violin player play the exact same note at different pitches, seemingly (I have no idea of her thought processes.) tracking the piano accompaniment to make a best fit within the stretch tuning of the piano. I tried to mention this to my wife, she hit me in a discreet but effective way.

My view is overwhelmingly that we can make the best music on guitars when freed from crappy setups. This comes from understanding the absurdly simple mechanics involved.

I have never seen it done otherwise. I have asked, and the strings have zero interest in my opinion, or that of anyone else. They do, however respond remarkably well to some adjustment based on the actual mechanics at work.

Bizarrely enough, I see this as the best and shortest route to the actual making of music.

Again, sorry to confuse. I am sure each will sort out and come to an opinion as they see fit.

[teeps]

Thanks anyway

[princeplanet]

... I tried to mention this to my wife, she hit me in a discreet but effective way.

...

You do have an intriguing way with words... Re the instrument vs player, there really is many sides to it you'd have to agree. We all feel we can play at our best on a great instrument that is set up well, one that almost feels as though it's playing itself with no bad sounding notes or chords, in terms of tone or pitch. But on the other hand, as was described earlier in the post about Danny Gatton being able to coax an out of tune guitar to be in tune, the player sometimes can overcome an instruments limitations and still play compellingly.

Me, I often practice on my lousy guitars to work on this very side of my, ahem, "musicianship'. It just makes you more aware of what you're playing, instead of taking it all for granted. Having a concept of "how it should sound" seems really important for me, as in, if that comes first, then everything else naturally follows. By that I mean the tuning, the dynamics, tone, expression etc. Not to mention the improv choices we make!

To sum up my little point here, if you hear it in your head first, then all we need to do is make it come out on the instrument. This is obviously, paradoxically, at once very easy yet very hard... i.e., once you have the "vision", the objective becomes clear and unambiguous, but also the mountain of work required to approach said vision comes clearly into focus as well...

[Ray175]

Interesting series of posts. Hadn't really thought about all the factors that affect intonation along the length of the fretboard. Bridge intonation, fret height, finger pressure when fretting, inharmonicity, nut height and slot angle, string guage, neck relief, action height, perceived as opposed to measured relative pitch......

It took me to this interesting site which others might find worth a read
Understanding Guitar Intonation; Better Guitar setup With Compensated Nut and Compensated Saddle

[KirkP]

As a result of this discussion I’ve decided to only tune to fretted notes at the fifth fret. It’s slightly more trouble to do so, but it seems to result in much better intonation across the fretboard (as long as the bridge is properly located and compensated). I’m finding after tuning this way that I no longer have to fuss around with tuning corrections — it just comes out right.

If the nut isn’t perfectly compensated, tuning to fretted strings may result in open strings being slightly off, but it’s worth it to have the fretboard in tune. After tuning this way, if the open strings are unacceptably out, then it’s time to consider nut work (slot height and/or compensation).

[ptchristopher3]

Re the instrument vs player, there really is many sides to it you'd have to agree.

We are talking about two completely different things.

One is a personal experience, the other is how to get the instrument best suited to the experience.

EDIT: I am sure that the interpretive personal experience topic is a great discussion to have, just that you would enjoy it more with someone better suited to the subject.

[ptchristopher3]

Hi Kirk,

Yes makes sense to me.

The way to decide if you need nut compensation is not through some sort of quasi-mystical experience, but rather to get the bridge compensation quite good, then tune to fretted notes.

Then evaluate your open string notes and decide if they are too flat or not.

**************

I did like how the guy in the “Beter setup” webpage spotted a conceptual problem with the Earvana nut right away. The compensation pattern does not match the actual mechanics involved. In short, the Earvana helps the plain G situation and for most players of light strings and plain G’s they do not notice anything else anyway. So the odd compensations in the low E and A escape notice.

[teeps]

Just when I thought I knew it all ... here is an interesting comparison of different tunings:

Might not be relevant to OP's request. A good trimming of the nut and suitable fretting force compared to string gauge can do much about that.

[sgosnell]

My initial preference was 1, 4, and 2 & 3 were a tossup, all by a small margin. None was much better than the others. I do think I would have issues with the fret placements of my favorites. I can live with straight frets.