Quality differences between tunomatic bridges and wood vs. tunomatic

[rio]

After RP’s video playing his new Wes and the little talk about tunomatic vs. wood bridges I swapped my original ebony bridge out of my L5 and put on the tunomatic bridge from my PM100, which now has the ebony bridge since both bridges apparently fit both guitars. The sound difference was very interesting. This brought up some questions that I was curious to throw out there to you all.

When I first got the L5 the very small intonation inaccuracies of the wood bridge were bothering me so I put on a tunomatic. I stuck with it for a few months and then went back to the ebony bridge, which sounded much better. The tunomatic I was using then was a really cheap one from a low end Ibanez. So first off I’m wondering what the difference is between low end and quality tunomatics that make the nicer ones sound better because the L5 sounds even more magical than before with the (I assume) higher quality tunomatic from the PM100 on it.

Also I am now really digging the sound of the ebony bridge on the PM100. I put a spare ebony bridge on my es-175 and that also sounds better to me. Do you guys have any preferences with different guitar types in terms of what bridges go on what kinds of guitars? My Ibanez AF-207 has a wooden bridge on it and that guitar sounds amazing, my lawsuit 175 currently has a tunomatic on it out of necessity (rather, lack of wooden bridges floating around) and I don’t dig the sound as much as when it had the wood one on and I think I am starting to discover that I just prefer wood bridges on laminate guitars.

I tried the tunomatic on my Eastman and I didn’t like it - that guitar really benefits from a wooden bridge so I don’t think I can make a blanket statement like “I prefer carved guitars with wooden bridges” so maybe it has more to do with top thickness. I do know that his particular L5 sounds much better with the tunomatic on it.

So the short version if you don’t want to read all of that, 1) are there construction differences between cheap tunomatics and nicer ones that make the latter sound better or is it something else that has me hearing a better sound from then nicer one and 2) do you have preferences on certain types of guitars in terms of what bridges you use?


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[sgosnell]

IMO the main thing that causes differences in sound is the fit of the bridge. Plus, there is the issue of a full base and one with two separate feet. Which one sounds better is both a matter of opinion and the individual guitar. I've had guitars that sounded better with one or the other, and to me it seems hit or miss. I've even had a couple of guitars that sounded better to me with an ill-fitting bridge base. All I know is that I can only decide which bridge I prefer by experimenting. Some guitars sound better with TOMs, some with wood, and the bridge base makes as much difference as the type of saddle.

[rio]

IMO the main thing that causes differences in sound is the fit of the bridge. Plus, there is the issue of a full base and one with two separate feet. Which one sounds better is both a matter of opinion and the individual guitar. I've had guitars that sounded better with one or the other, and to me it seems hit or miss. I've even had a couple of guitars that sounded better to me with an ill-fitting bridge base. All I know is that I can only decide which bridge I prefer by experimenting. Some guitars sound better with TOMs, some with wood, and the bridge base makes as much difference as the type of saddle.

Interesting - the PM100 and L5 bridges were interchangeable because the contour of the bridges worked on both guitars but the L5 bridge has 2 feet whereas the PM100 was one piece. That is a good point that there would be differences in the sound between them so maybe the improved sound on the L5 isn’t so much the tunomatic but more the one piece bridge.


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[rpguitar]

Ah, the rabbit hole that is saddle choice on an archtop. My WesMo has its stock TOM back on again, BTW. I love the ebony sound, but there is something about the attack - bright, woody, but also a little harsh if not carefully managed - that irked me. The TOM is not brighter. It's smoother, and allows the most subtle touch to ring out. It's an extremely solid tone, and it seems to get the most out of the pickups. I don't know how else to explain it, but right now it's working for me.

I have similar experiences with my other archtops. I can't say I have a general preference, other than that wood looks cooler. But looks alone are not reason for using it. Each guitar seems to ultimately decide for me what to fit it with. I have TOM, ebony, and rosewood on various guitars, and a box of spare saddles for the next time I feel like experimenting!

[Stringswinger]

Rio,

Just like strings make a difference in tone, so do bridges. In fact tailpieces and tuners also change a guitars tone. Dialing in the whole package can be time consuming and expensive.

I have found that there is a difference in tone between cheap bridges, ( both wood and TOM) and expensive bridges. And the tonal differences (and volume) can be dramatic.

If we are only talking about archtop saddles, I like wood. I have tried both cheap and expensive TOM's (I hate the cheap ones or the new ones with titanium saddles) and I simply prefer wood in every case. But some of my guitars like rosewood, others prefer ebony and even there, I have had to find saddles made of high quality wood. (Vinny gave me a couple of Brazilian Rosewood saddles that are now on my two figured 175s)

And even after you get all the bridge/tailpiece/ tuners/strings thing worked out, then there is pickups, cables and amps to figure out.

It is a wonder we have any time left over to practice.

[Jazzstdnt]

In my experience wood sounds better but intonates less effectively.

I have a tun-o-matic bridge with some manufactured saddles (plastic?) that are softer than gold plated metal, and unlike a wooden bridge, are highly adjustable.

[Stefan Eff]

I‘m new to this community, hello to y‘all!

Cheap bridges are tone killers, especially zinc cast chinese TOMs. The best sounding bridge is a solid, one piece bar bridge made of aluminium, steel, brass, wood or ebano.

I‘ve played Truarcs and Comptons but the very best sounding bridges are dBridges. They are indivdually made for your guitar, you should check out for yourself:


dbridge – custom made solid bar bridges

[Ray175]

[QUOTE=rpguitar;842851]Ah, the rabbit hole that is saddle choice on an archtop. [QUOTE]

A deep rabbit hole indeed. For archtops I generally prefer the sound from wood, with all the intonation challenge that implies - for the last 6 months I've had 14s on my 175, but the (minor) adjustments to bridge angle and placement took some time to optimise after playing 12s and 13s

I question the impact of full base or two feet - after all violins, cellos etc would have a full bass to the bridge to maximise contact, wouldn't they?

A few weeks ago a friend came round with his Greco 175 copy which had a TOM bridge that had nylon saddles on the top 3 strings and metal on the lower three. The sound was nicely balanced with a faster decay on the top strings - at least as far as MY ears remembered.

I'm like rd, I fel my way forward for the right solution on each guitar. In my current set of guitars, the only bridge/guitar combination that has never needed particular attention is on the Ibanez 2619 Prestige with its modern Gibraltar bridge and on my 1978 Ibanez MC400 with the original Gibraltar bridge - but those are solidbodies.

[cosmic gumbo]

I question the impact of full base or two feet - after all violins, cellos etc would have a full bass to the bridge to maximise contact, wouldn't they?

Classical string instruments have bridges with two feet, and a soundpost.

[rio]

Thanks for all of the info guys!

I‘m new to this community, hello to y‘all!

Cheap bridges are tone killers, especially zinc cast chinese TOMs. The best sounding bridge is a solid, one piece bar bridge made of aluminium, steel, brass, wood or ebano.

I‘ve played Truarcs and Comptons but the very best sounding bridges are dBridges. They are indivdually made for your guitar, you should check out for yourself:


dbridge – custom made solid bar bridges

This is part of what I was wondering - I assumed that there was a difference in construction or metal in cheaper bridges but didn’t know what it was so hearing that zinc is used in cheaper bridges is interesting. What is used for higher end tunomatics?

Classical string instruments have bridges with two feet, and a soundpost.

Yeah, from what I have guessed (from upright bass at least) the two feet transfer vibration to two important internal parts of the bass, the sound post and the bass bar. We all know about the sound post I’m sure but if you haven’t seen the inside of a bass underneath the other foot of the bridge is the bass bar which is a long piece of wood underneath the top of the bass. The bass bar takes a lot of the tension of the strings and distributes it - so it makes sense that there are two feet on a bass (and I assume the other orchestral strings) since those feet are transferring vibration and pressure to those two internal parts. I’ve always been curious about two feet bridges vs. one piece bridges on guitars since the two feet don’t seem as necessary on an archtop without those internals.




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[icr]

Crummy Chinese archtop bridge does this (exaggerated for clarity). It is hard to find a properly made two foot archtop bridge, so I use the single foot bridges.
Even on this bridge, which may be original Gibson. Notice the dip between the feet.

[rio]

Crummy Chinese archtop bridge does this (exaggerated for clarity). It is hard to find a properly made two foot archtop bridge, so I use the single foot bridges.

I have seen that too with a couple replacement bridges in the past. Is that due to the post placement relative to where the feet are or the thinness of the top part of the bridge or something else?


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[lammie200]

I‘m new to this community, hello to y‘all!

Cheap bridges are tone killers, especially zinc cast chinese TOMs. The best sounding bridge is a solid, one piece bar bridge made of aluminium, steel, brass, wood or ebano.

I‘ve played Truarcs and Comptons but the very best sounding bridges are dBridges. They are indivdually made for your guitar, you should check out for yourself:


dbridge – custom made solid bar bridges

Interesting alternatives. I just put a Resomax V2 on my Casino Coupe. The metal is a better alloy than typical pot metal and the graphtec saddles are an improvement. Much better sonic balance without the metallic spike.

[sgosnell]

The bridge base bends under pressure, as it's designed to. With the two feet, I don't think it's essential that they fit the top exactly. The area under pressure from the base is relatively small anyway, and I don't feel it makes a big difference. I put one of those on my '53 Epi, and it sounds as good as it did with the original fitted bridge, maybe better. It does depend on the marriage between the individual top and base, as well as the saddle, so I think it's difficult at best to predict what will work best.

[Stefan Eff]

I‘m playin a dBridge in Ebano on my Guild Manhattan and the aluminum version on my Gretsch. The difference to standard bridges is night/day.

[Matt Cushman]

A wooden saddle has the disadvantage of having no adjustment for intonation. One solution is to copy in wood a tune-o-matic that has been adjusted to suit a particular guitar. I have done this a few times with good results.



I like a two foot base that is made with a thick center section like the bridge base often seen on mandolins.
The base I prefer looks like a one foot design with a small section removed in the center. I don't have a photo of one for some odd reason.

[Sam Sherry]

I’ve always been curious about two feet bridges vs. one piece bridges on guitars since the two feet don’t seem as necessary on an archtop without those internals.

The purpose of the Gibson two-foot bridge with the popsicle-stick connector was to provide a platform that would bend enough that it would be somewhat self-fitting to the top. Combined with the screw-on top, it eliminated the need for Gibson factory workers (let alone dealers) to carve a bunch of bridges. It does that job but often -- usually -- at a sonic cost.

I'm just some dweeb on the interwebz, but IMO the two-foot bridge was not one of Lloyd Loar's best notions. Far better than the evaporating celluloid pickguard, but still much more oriented toward factory production than tone production.

[stoneground]

I've never owned an archtop with a wooden bridge, I only have experience of Tun-o-matics. On the one occasion that I tried swapping the original gold plated TOM on my 165 for a high quality nickel replacement I found that the tone was radically altered and not for the better. Both were fitting well but the replacement sounded thin, bright and metallic compared to the warm more sustained sound of the original ABR1. I could only ascribe this to the fact that the replacement was a rather sturdier construction with noticeably more wood in the feet. This bears out what I have read elsewhere that more wood does not necessarily translate to a mellow tone but can often cut out the bass frequencies. Following on from Cosmic Gumbo's comments about Classical stringed instruments I would suggest that two feet would transmit sound to the top just as effectively or more effectively than one long single point of contact. There is more pressure at the point of contact with two feet and also less wood to absorb sound before it gets to the top.
Interestingly whilst browsing for information on bridges on violins I read about the huge effects different tailpieces have on that instrument. I remember commenting on the improved tone I experienced after a tailpiece swap but I don't think I was taken very seriously. Anyway that's for another thread if anyone's interested.

[oldane]

A wooden saddle has the disadvantage of having no adjustment for intonation. One solution is to copy in wood a tune-o-matic that has been adjusted to suit a particular guitar. I have done this a few times with good results.



I like a two foot base that is made with a thick center section like the bridge base often seen on mandolins.
The base I prefer looks like a one foot design with a small section removed in the center. I don't have a photo of one for some odd reason.

Irish luthier John Moriarty (no, not professor Moriarty whom Sherlock Holmes fought with for years :-) ) offered this but has regrettably halted that service due to a very busy building and repair schedule. I have a couple of wood saddles made that way by him.

[Hammertone]

dbridge looks great if string compensation is an issue.

I just got a brass Compton included with another deal and plan to test it out on a few archtops to see how it compares with various other materials in terms of sonic effect. Maybe I'll also try it on a Les Paul.

I have one archtop bridge with a brass insert in the ebony base and it has made every guitar on which I've tried it sound fatter.

I've also made a test archtop bridge top piece with a brass strip glued to the underside of the existing wood and it has had the same effect.

This is an interesting area of archtop design. Thankfully, it's easy and cheap to experiment with different materials and evaluate the results.

[Stefan Eff]

I‘ve played Comptons at the beginning of my bar bridge journey, but dBridges are a class above. But Comptons look cool ;-)



^ the ebano on my Guild. Unbelievable great tone, it really warms up the sometimes icy highs from the Franz pkups.