Broken Gibson L-5 Tailpiece

[ThatRhythmMan]

Heres a Frequensator that snapped on the bend. It was broken all the way through. It was welded by my sax guy. On the right you can still see it is a bit rough, on the left it is not visible at all.

Attachment 49840

I have one just like that and it’s broken all the way through also. I have talked to several brass repair people around me and none were interested in putting it back together.

[ptchristopher3]

I have one just like that and it’s broken all the way through also. I have talked to several brass repair people around me and none were interested in putting it back together.

I am not a metal expert at all, but definitely have seen how brass work hardens and becomes more brittle at a bend.

As I understand it, in principle a welded (molten brass fusing to brass) repair could be stronger than the original sharply bent area.

Maybe not via some magical “$20 job”, but if one had a truly irreplaceable tailpiece, I would not rule out a repair purely due to some expected weakness.

The killer with the L5 TP though is the re-finish work - in my opinion.

I have done my share of brazing steel to steel, but never tried simply torch-welding brass to brass.

If we have a February blizzard that keeps us indoors, maybe I will break out the oxygen/MAPP gas torch and try such a weld for laughs.

To the OP: I checked, and the last time I got a tailpiece from Gibson was 2009. I see the name and phone number of the person who sent it (albeit from 9 years ago).

So if you hit a roadblock with Gibson, you could take a shot in the dark with this contact info. I suspect the contact you have already received is a far more likely option.

[ThatRhythmMan]

This is mine. It belongs on my ‘38 Broadway.

[fitflatpicker]

If I’m reading this situation right, the OP is very fortunate this break didn’t happen under tension. Gorgeous instrument, and I look forward to hearing that this was resolved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[skiboyny]

You are so right! I was in shock when this thing just fell apart, but the thought of what it might have done to the top turned my thoughts much more positive. Thanks.

If I’m reading this situation right, the OP is very fortunate this break didn’t happen under tension. Gorgeous instrument, and I look forward to hearing that this was resolved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[icr]

No problem, you have the Gibson Gold Lifetime Warranty....

(It is a joke! As I presume you have a vintage instrument and Gibson wants you to buy a new one rather than fix this one).

[Max405]

Skiboyny,
im sorry this happened to you. I would call Gibson. Chris’s comment about the plating is so true. Gibson uses Advanced plating in Nashville for some restoration work. Frank John’s is the guy to talk to. He is a really nice man. Gibson might direct you to them for the entire repair. They have a minimum of Something like $90 per order. They will tell you to add whatever other gold parts you want replated. Pickup covers, screws, tuning heads...
hang in there buddy. I know that sucks. But you will get it back as good as new.
Joe D

[Jabberwocky]

The Gibson Custom Shop should make it simple for you to replace that broken tailpiece in a one for one replacement. Worst case scenario: they may ask that you send the L5 with the broken tailpiece back to Nashville where the Gibson CS will do the swap. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[vinnyv1k]

Gibson keeps L5 tailpieces under lock and key. If you are the original owner they will replace it but you must return the old tailpiece. If you go through a authorized warranty center they will send the tailpiece first. If you are not the original owner they will sell you a tailpiece once they have your old one in there possession.

It has never been easy to get Gibson parts unless you are a dealer in good standing with Gibson. I was able to get impossible parts only because my dealer friend's fishing buddy was a Gibson Rep. Hard yes / Impossible no.

[Stringswinger]

I had an Epiphone Frequesator tailpiece (from a Triumph that I was restoring) repaired at a woodwinds shop. The Braze made the metal good as new and as strong (or stronger) than new and was an inexpensive fix. The plating took a big hit. You would need to have the woodwinds shop do the braze and find a good plating shop to strip and replate it. All of which is probably cheaper than a new one and will preserve the originality of the instrument.

On an L-5, I would opt to put a generic tailpiece on to make the guitar useable while I searched (waited?) for a used one from the same era of the guitar to come up. I would keep the broken one as part of the guitar's history.

[rpguitar]

What a hassle. You could also pay $450 for this WesMo tailpiece and just swap the center medallion with your non-signature version, assuming it comes off. You could then sell the WesMo sig part for some silly amount of money and gain back a little.

Gibson L5 Custom Wes Montgomery Tailpiece | Reverb

[Ol' Fret]

Brass can be (soft) soldered, brazed (hard-soldered) or welded.
As a saxophone doubling guy I can tell that the horn technicians use to braze with silver solder. This demands temperatures between 650 and 700 degree Celsius (1,200 - 1,300°F ), depending on the silver solder. Saxophones and brass wind instruments are usually not very heavily mechanically stressed except the keys and valves - after all, our tailpieces withstand about 700N steady string tensile load! The horn repairers prefer brazing because soft solder can creep under load, and the tensile strength of a brazed workpiece can be up to 50 times higher than on a comparable soft-soldered piece.
A repair of that broken tailpiece through brazing, IMO, can certainly be done, though some additional shimming with a little brass sheet below the actual break line could be necessary. The problem will be that the required high temperatures discolor the (larger) surrounding area, which can end up in a somewhat annoying appearance that the customer should get informed of in advance.

A full galvanic gold replating of the tailpiece (an underlying nickel, or similar metal, plating is necessary) can be a costly procedure: in by far most cases today's guitar hardware shows a shameful thin layer thickness between only 0.5 and 1 µm. A more durable industrial gold plating of such a piece can easily cost Euro 250, at least it would so in Germany. Of course, it would be possible to only " gold touch up" the brazed and discolored area, but it would be doubtful if that could be well made without utilizing higher efforts: for instance, there is a number of different colors of gold platings.


The original Frequensator tails have had other problems: the sheet metal was to meager, and the angle of bend to abrupt - thus the (usually slow) breaking predetermined. I think these nickel plated anchor plates can be sufficiently repaired without a big fuss as long as only one side is affected. If it is broken in two, IMO, it would be better to have a new anchor plate made.

The hingeless L-5 and Super 400 tailpieces look really great and were made of sturdy 2.5mm or so, brass sheet. The radius of bend looks ok, though I would have to ask a metallurgist if the cold bending would still be acceptable at this sheet thickness. If failure happens at the site of the bending, it could also be due the actually used brass alloy, the metal sheet rolling process or simply the wrong direction of rolling, etcetc.
What the designers of these TP's probably were not aware of is the fact that on an archtop guitar the tailpiece swings up and down, pulling on the top of the bridge. In some cases with rigid hingeless tailpieces that swinging up and down may show sort of inhibited or irregular vibrations, which can result from the horizontal misalignment between the strings and the fixed tailpiece and can lead to mechanical tension peaks. Especially aircraft manufacturers will know about such vibrational and resonance phenonemons.
Such a fixed tailpiece can follow only a limited height adjustment of the bridge, which in the course of decades often has to take place on an archtop guitar for reasons of an inevitable, albeit slight distortion of the body, different players, etc. Also, the shorter the back strings length between the bridge and the tailpiece the more strongly the tailpiece motion is coupled into the top. But this a different story...

[skiboyny]

I won't send the guitar. That is the terms of the "warranty" but that would be ridiculous and risky. I also hope that isn't even suggested!

The Gibson Custom Shop should make it simple for you to replace that broken tailpiece in a one for one replacement. Worst case scenario: they may ask that you send the L5 with the broken tailpiece back to Nashville where the Gibson CS will do the swap. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[skiboyny]

Saw it but it's a square tail. Got to be the same one. Good thought though.

What a hassle. You could also pay $450 for this WesMo tailpiece and just swap the center medallion with your non-signature version, assuming it comes off. You could then sell the WesMo sig part for some silly amount of money and gain back a little.

Gibson L5 Custom Wes Montgomery Tailpiece | Reverb

[skiboyny]

Thank you Joe, great information. I'm sure one way or another I'll get something going.

Skiboyny,
im sorry this happened to you. I would call Gibson. Chris’s comment about the plating is so true. Gibson uses Advanced plating in Nashville for some restoration work. Frank John’s is the guy to talk to. He is a really nice man. Gibson might direct you to them for the entire repair. They have a minimum of Something like $90 per order. They will tell you to add whatever other gold parts you want replated. Pickup covers, screws, tuning heads...
hang in there buddy. I know that sucks. But you will get it back as good as new.
Joe D

[skiboyny]

I'm not the original owner. But I do know the original owner. I'm sure If I do the leg work he wouldn't mind helping any way he can. I would bet there is a hefty price on an L5 tailpiece.

Gibson keeps L5 tailpieces under lock and key. If you are the original owner they will replace it but you must return the old tailpiece. If you go through a authorized warranty center they will send the tailpiece first. If you are not the original owner they will sell you a tailpiece once they have your old one in there possession.

It has never been easy to get Gibson parts unless you are a dealer in good standing with Gibson. I was able to get impossible parts only because my dealer friend's fishing buddy was a Gibson Rep. Hard yes / Impossible no.

[skiboyny]

correct on both counts..

No problem, you have the Gibson Gold Lifetime Warranty....

(It is a joke! As I presume you have a vintage instrument and Gibson wants you to buy a new one rather than fix this one).

[skiboyny]

For the stress that you mention, I'm blown away that it didn't fail while under tension. I guess it's a blessing of sorts. Thank you for the info.

Brass can be (soft) soldered, brazed (hard-soldered) or welded.
As a saxophone doubling guy I can tell that the horn technicians use to braze with silver solder. This demands temperatures between 650 and 700 degree Celsius (1,200 - 1,300°F ), depending on the silver solder. Saxophones and brass wind instruments are usually not very heavily mechanically stressed except the keys and valves - after all, our tailpieces withstand about 700N steady string tensile load! The horn repairers prefer brazing because soft solder can creep under load, and the tensile strength of a brazed workpiece can be up to 50 times higher than on a comparable soft-soldered piece.
A repair of that broken tailpiece through brazing, IMO, can certainly be done, though some additional shimming with a little brass sheet below the actual break line could be necessary. The problem will be that the required high temperatures discolor the (larger) surrounding area, which can end up in a somewhat annoying appearance that the customer should get informed of in advance.

A full galvanic gold replating of the tailpiece (an underlying nickel, or similar metal, plating is necessary) can be a costly procedure: in by far most cases today's guitar hardware shows a shameful thin layer thickness between only 0.5 and 1 µm. A more durable industrial gold plating of such a piece can easily cost Euro 250, at least it would so in Germany. Of course, it would be possible to only " gold touch up" the brazed and discolored area, but it would be doubtful if that could be well made without utilizing higher efforts: for instance, there is a number of different colors of gold platings.


The original Frequensator tails have had other problems: the sheet metal was to meager, and the angle of bend to abrupt - thus the (usually slow) breaking predetermined. I think these nickel plated anchor plates can be sufficiently repaired without a big fuss as long as only one side is affected. If it is broken in two, IMO, it would be better to have a new anchor plate made.

The hingeless L-5 and Super 400 tailpieces look really great and were made of sturdy 2.5mm or so, brass sheet. The angle of bend looks ok, though I would have to ask a metallurgist if the cold bending would still be acceptable at this sheet thickness. If failure happens at the site of the bending, it could also be due the actually used brass alloy, the metal sheet rolling process or simply the wrong direction of rolling, etcetc.
What the designers of these TP's probably were not aware of is the fact that on an archtop guitar the tailpiece swings up and down, pulling on the top of the bridge. In some cases with rigid hingeless tailpieces that swinging up and down may show sort of inhibited or irregular vibrations, which can result from the horizontal misalignment between the strings and the fixed tailpiece and can lead to mechanical tension peaks. Especially aircraft manufacturers will know about such vibrational and resonance phenonemons.
Such a fixed tailpiece can follow only a limited height adjustment of the bridge, which in the course of decades often has to take place on an archtop guitar for reasons of an inevitable, albeit slight distortion of the body, different players, etc. Also, the shorter the back strings length between the bridge and the tailpiece the more strongly the tailpiece motion is coupled into the top. But this a different story...

[NotDave]

Try Alex Whitman at TR Crandall. He has someone he sends tailpieces to who fixes breaks and the like. I had a mid-30's Epi Broadway tailpiece that he had repaired for me, and it was very, very nicely done.

[skiboyny]

Good information. Thanks

Try Alex Whitman at TR Crandall. He has someone he sends tailpieces to who fixes breaks and the like. I had a mid-30's Epi Broadway tailpiece that he had repaired for me, and it was very, very nicely done.

[Jabberwocky]

I won't send the guitar. That is the terms of the "warranty" but that would be ridiculous and risky. I also hope that isn't even suggested!

That is what Gibson make owners of guitars with missing COAs do, send the entire guitar back to get that silly $2 sheet of paper replaced. I know because Gibson ordered me to do that for my 2005 R4 Oxblood with a missing COA. So, I won't be surprised if they require the same of proprietary parts like tailpieces. The L5, Super 400, ES-175 tailpieces are guarded tighter than Fort Knox. I hope in the best of circumstances that Gibson will allow you to mail your broken one in, in part exchange for a new one. They are about $395 each from Gibson or so I have heard. Not that expensive to acquire but hard to acquire hence the mark up one sees on Reverb or ebay. I hope mine do not go south soon...

The alternative is to replace it with an ABM 1500G Long Fingers tailpiece...

[Jim Bastian]

this is true....from around 78 to 82 there is no varitone adjustment hole.

[BBGuitar]

The hinge on my Eastman AR605 gave up and broke under tension I opened the case one day and it was broke. The dealer sent me another one right away. ( this has happened to a lot of them, a bad run of brass alloy).

While I was waiting for the new one I had the broken one braised ( they use a lower melting point brass alloy ) the repair didn't last a week. I was lucky I noticed the tuning dropped and the repair was letting go.

I don't know how the new one is holding up. It is sitting in evidence for over 2 years now. Stolen and recovered within hours, then stolen by the legal system.

[floatingpickup]

Chris I will absolutely post back on any resolve I manage to get. Thank you. The gold was close to perfect unbelievable for over 40 years old.

I realize this thread is a year old now, but I would be interested to hear if Gibson ever did anything to help skiboyny out with his broken tailpiece.
Keith

[feet]

me too. a small crack developed on the tp of my gretsch and on the advice of some folks here, i hit up some woodwind repair folks. only one even responded, and that was with a very curt no. that was here in los angeles. if anyone knows of someone, we're listening.