Kent Armstrong Slimbucker pickup?

**dh82c** · 10-21-2009, 11:40 PM

Ok. Still didnt give it the full treatment but played for a while on my POD and here is what I found.

I have never tried a real Johnny Smith PU but in the upper registers it sounds quite similar. To a connaiseur maybe not but I got some tones that made me attempt licks from the Walk Dont Run album.

No ice pick. Nice snap to the attack. Clear and articulate through all registers. Not as warm as a full humbucker, but still has a charm of its own.
The POD isnt the best thing to test responsiveness so I will leave that for when I can fire up the Super Reverb or Princeton Reverb.

It is one of the few pickups that I enjoy playing WITHOUT having the tone/vol rolled back (btw 2 Bourne 500k Audio pots and a .01mF bumblebee for the tone. The 01 was necessary for the stock Epi, I might try this guy with .022 but like I said, I dont even use the tone on this one).

I half A$$ed installed it last night but I am thinking that tomorrow after the kid is asleep I will do a proper install and give it a good workout.

What I didnt expect also is how well this pickup responds to overdrive. I turn up the drive to give it a little hair and, again through all registers, doesnt mud out.

I overpaid for the pickup (WD instead of a seller on ebay so I got raped on it 112$ plus 20$ shipping VS 80$ plus 10$.. we live and learn) but if I had payed 90$ shipped I would have been quite pleased with it. If you insist on replacing the stock pickup i would not hesitate to recommend this pickup IF that is the sound you are looking for. I would point out that if you are DIYn it you will have to add your own shielded lead and 4 pan head mounting screws that are approx 7/64th and maybe 1/8 long. Gold tuner screws seem to do the trick unless you have something better.

Oh no, I've said too much (I havent said enough)

Gnight

**RAQ** · 10-22-2009, 03:22 AM

Good review - I really must begin training my ears to be more efficient, I'm sure I would struggle to make such fine distinctions ... swapping pots and caps on a series of tests would make a good winter project for me (along with all the others I keep dreaming up).

**dh82c** · 10-22-2009, 09:16 AM

Yeah.. sat down with my brother in law testing tubes once. It was more a lesson in learning to listen.

For caps you can use a couple of alligator clips to try different one. I can usually tell what value I need because for guitar tone caps are pretty limited to 4 values (.01,02,03,04). But if you are comparing types (paper in oil, polyester, orange drop etc) of the same value the clips are useful.
I havent really gotten into the different types yet. I dont know if I have the ear for that yet.

Sometimes it is nice to stop analyzing (or writing about it) and actually play a little

**RAQ** · 10-22-2009, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by dh82c

Yeah.. sat down with my brother in law testing tubes once. It was more a lesson in learning to listen.

For caps you can use a couple of alligator clips to try different one. I can usually tell what value I need because for guitar tone caps are pretty limited to 4 values (.01,02,03,04). But if you are comparing types (paper in oil, polyester, orange drop etc) of the same value the clips are useful.
I havent really gotten into the different types yet. I dont know if I have the ear for that yet.

Sometimes it is nice to stop analyzing (or writing about it) and actually play a little

Hey, hang on, take it easy - I'm not ready for anything quite so radical.

At one stage I was planning to build a guitar cable with an 'in line' components box holding the pots and cap (via a single pickup wired straight to the guitar's output jack); that way I'd have 'external' vol/tone control options without either having them stuck on a pickguard or cut into the top. I've got the parts ready, but the Emperor project took over before I'd got it finished. It would be interesting to make up a cable with a 'vero' board (or similar) 'in line' so components could be changed quickly and easily outside the guitar. Various combinations could be tried out and the best combination wired in to the guitar itself later. Could even existing guitars with two pickups and controls already installed be tested in this way - by using the selector switch and setting the inbuilt pots to max, then making temporary adjustments on an external panel? I wonder if this is how Les Paul got started.

You're right though - it's either that or actually play the damn things.

**Meggy** · 10-22-2009, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by dh82c

Ok. Still didnt give it the full treatment but played for a while on my POD and here is what I found.

I have never tried a real Johnny Smith PU but in the upper registers it sounds quite similar. To a connaiseur maybe not but I got some tones that made me attempt licks from the Walk Dont Run album.

No ice pick. Nice snap to the attack. Clear and articulate through all registers. Not as warm as a full humbucker, but still has a charm of its own.
The POD isnt the best thing to test responsiveness so I will leave that for when I can fire up the Super Reverb or Princeton Reverb.

It is one of the few pickups that I enjoy playing WITHOUT having the tone/vol rolled back (btw 2 Bourne 500k Audio pots and a .01mF bumblebee for the tone. The 01 was necessary for the stock Epi, I might try this guy with .022 but like I said, I dont even use the tone on this one).

I half A$$ed installed it last night but I am thinking that tomorrow after the kid is asleep I will do a proper install and give it a good workout.

What I didnt expect also is how well this pickup responds to overdrive. I turn up the drive to give it a little hair and, again through all registers, doesnt mud out.

I overpaid for the pickup (WD instead of a seller on ebay so I got raped on it 112$ plus 20$ shipping VS 80$ plus 10$.. we live and learn) but if I had payed 90$ shipped I would have been quite pleased with it. If you insist on replacing the stock pickup i would not hesitate to recommend this pickup IF that is the sound you are looking for. I would point out that if you are DIYn it you will have to add your own shielded lead and 4 pan head mounting screws that are approx 7/64th and maybe 1/8 long. Gold tuner screws seem to do the trick unless you have something better.

Oh no, I've said too much (I havent said enough)

Gnight

Thanks for that fairly comprehensive assessment, much appreciated. I don't like the sound of the flaking electroplating, but I will hope mine is OK when I get it. As I say, I will be going for the sidemount version so won't need to worry about the mounting screws. I expect it will be brighter than the existing pickup, but since it will be positioned closer to the neck, it should also have more of that "neck pickup" quality. Should be interesting, plus I will have the option to mix it with the original humbucker as that is staying put. Somewhere in there, I hope I will be able to find a good tone!

All this talk of capacitor values is a little over my head, and I still don't know what value is on the guitar at the moment, or what type, although it is working nicely and has a good range and smoothness of operation. So my initial plan is to leave this as it is, and just expand the circuit to include the new pickup and a mini togle 3 way selector switch to allow the usual combinations for 2 pickups. I am planning to buy some suitable shielded pickup wire as you say. It does sound like you are having to pay rather more than us in the UK suprisingly - over here the Slimbucker goes for around £45 to £50 depending on the finish, and I don't think the other Kent Armstrongs are very different in this respect.

Cheers again though for such a helpful review, nice one!

**randyc** · 10-22-2009, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Meggy

Thanks for that fairly comprehensive assessment, much appreciated. I don't like the sound of the flaking electroplating, but I will hope mine is OK when I get it. As I say, I will be going for the sidemount version so won't need to worry about the mounting screws. I expect it will be brighter than the existing pickup, but since it will be positioned closer to the neck, it should also have more of that "neck pickup" quality. Should be interesting, plus I will have the option to mix it with the original humbucker as that is staying put. Somewhere in there, I hope I will be able to find a good tone!

All this talk of capacitor values is a little over my head, and I still don't know what value is on the guitar at the moment, or what type, although it is working nicely and has a good range and smoothness of operation. So my initial plan is to leave this as it is, and just expand the circuit to include the new pickup and a mini togle 3 way selector switch to allow the usual combinations for 2 pickups. I am planning to buy some suitable shielded pickup wire as you say. It does sound like you are having to pay rather more than us in the UK suprisingly - over here the Slimbucker goes for around £45 to £50 depending on the finish, and I don't think the other Kent Armstrongs are very different in this respect.

Cheers again though for such a helpful review, nice one!

I think that you have a .047 uF capacitor . Changed mine to .022 when I replaced the p/u - WAY too trebly - went back to the .047. Did not change the existing pots ...

If still too trebly, replace with 0.1 uF (type, brand, etc, not important - anything with that VALUE is acceptable). If the tone is STILL not to your taste, you'll have to change the pots and start the "easter egg hunt" with the capacitor all over again. Cheers

**dh82c** · 10-22-2009, 01:44 PM

Without getting too deep think of it this way:

Tone controls remove part of the pickups output before it goes to the amp. Volume controls do the same thing. The difference is because a tone control uses a capacitor it can be used to control the level of a specific range of frequencies where as a volume removes all frequencies.

Because of the way a capacitor works it allows higher frequencies to pass more easily than lower one. In the case of a tone control it allows you to remove the higher frequencies.
That range of frequencies is controlled by the value of the cap. For example, .01 would only let the highest frequencies be removed, .022 would remove high and upper mids. .047 would allow from the highs to the mids to be removed.

This is overly simplified but if you know just a little of how a tone control works then this might shed a bit more light.

Randy is right about differnt pots as well. High value pots are brighter than lower values. This is more evident with the volume than with the tone.

I usually get the volume pot right, pick a tone pot based on sweep (how sensitive the pot is to changes) and then pick a cap value based on tone. As I mentioned, I dont get too much into wether the cap is orange drop or PIO or whatever.

**Meggy** · 10-22-2009, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by randyc

I think that you have a .047 uF capacitor . Changed mine to .022 when I replaced the p/u - WAY too trebly - went back to the .047. Did not change the existing pots ...

If still too trebly, replace with 0.1 uF (type, brand, etc, not important - anything with that VALUE is acceptable). If the tone is STILL not to your taste, you'll have to change the pots and start the "easter egg hunt" with the capacitor all over again. Cheers

Thanks for that randy, I guess most humbucker guitars of japanese origin probably have a .047 uF in them? If the new pickup turns out to be a bit brighter with the .047 then that won't necessarily be a bad thing as I don't want it to very similar to the existing pickup. When I finally get the mod done (don't hold your breath!) I'll post to let people know how it went.

Originally Posted by dh82c

Without getting too deep think of it this way:

Tone controls remove part of the pickups output before it goes to the amp. Volume controls do the same thing. The difference is because a tone control uses a capacitor it can be used to control the level of a specific range of frequencies where as a volume removes all frequencies.

Because of the way a capacitor works it allows higher frequencies to pass more easily than lower one. In the case of a tone control it allows you to remove the higher frequencies.
That range of frequencies is controlled by the value of the cap. For example, .01 would only let the highest frequencies be removed, .022 would remove high and upper mids. .047 would allow from the highs to the mids to be removed.

This is overly simplified but if you know just a little of how a tone control works then this might shed a bit more light.

Randy is right about differnt pots as well. High value pots are brighter than lower values. This is more evident with the volume than with the tone.

I usually get the volume pot right, pick a tone pot based on sweep (how sensitive the pot is to changes) and then pick a cap value based on tone. As I mentioned, I dont get too much into wether the cap is orange drop or PIO or whatever.

Cheers, I think that does help dh! I recently rewired a 2 pickup solid guitar, and replaced the stock .047 capacitor with an orange drop .047 one while I was at it. To be honest I'm not sure I could say there is a difference that I can detect. But I think at least now I understand a bit better as to what is going on with capacitor and pot values.

**RAQ** · 10-22-2009, 04:38 PM

I was always under the impression humbucker type pickups came with .022 caps and 500K pots - I thought it was the single coils that had .047 and 250K pots. I know this is a generalisation, but I thought it was generally true. I'm going to have to start looking into this now, otherwise I shalln't be able to sleep at nights. These last few posts are really useful though - thanks.

**dh82c** · 10-22-2009, 08:35 PM

Hard to generalize about fenders. . Strats use .022 mF caps, Teles .047. I just overhauled my jazzmaster. It has two separate tone circuits. the lead circuit is two 1Meg pots and .033 cap. The rhythm circuit has a 1meg vol, a 50k tone and .022 caps. Some of the tone pots are even linear taper. I dont know of any other guitar that uses them.Of course I am scrapping all that.. next month lol.

I asked a bought a custom wound p90 from Jason Lollar for my Epi. He recommends 500k and .022 with that pickup to start with.
I thought that vintage Gibsons used some funky value like 300k but that might have just been the wine.

**randyc** · 10-22-2009, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by dh82c

I asked a bought a custom wound p90 from Jason Lollar for my Epi. He recommends 500k and .022 with that pickup to start with.
I thought that vintage Gibsons used some funky value like 300k but that might have just been the wine.

Yeah, I "seemed" to recall 250k pots but I just looked up the values (in Kamimoto's 1975 book) and it's 500k/.022 for all humbuckers ...

**dh82c** · 10-23-2009, 12:02 AM

Looks like around 73 they used 300k pots in Les Pauls at the very least and probably other models too. I have never seen one of the 300k pots but other forums say it is a custom taper (log for the first and last 3rd and linear through the middle 3rd, or vise versa) . I am tired.

Gnight

**randyc** · 10-23-2009, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by dh82c

Looks like around 73 they used 300k pots in Les Pauls at the very least and probably other models too. I have never seen one of the 300k pots but other forums say it is a custom taper (log for the first and last 3rd and linear through the middle 3rd, or vise versa) . I am tired.

Gnight

VERY interesting. There's no manufacturing reason (other than cost) why the potentiometer taper couldn't be varied over its range but I've never heard of it being done before !

Any latent memories regarding the source of that information ? There's so much information out there ... while thinking that I had a decent library, I've recently concluded otherwise.

Thanks,
randy

**dh82c** · 10-23-2009, 07:50 PM

One of my first guitar books. Guitar Electronics for Musicians by Bronsac. I am certain you have it. Page 52.
If not it is fortunately in books.google.ca

It doesnt confirm the funky taper thing tho. (Un)forutnately I have never see a book GIBSON:THE NORLIN YEARS on amazon.ca

Guitar Electronics for Musicians - Google Books

**randyc** · 10-23-2009, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by dh82c

It doesnt confirm the funky taper thing tho. (Un)forutnately I have never see a book GIBSON:THE NORLIN YEARS on amazon.ca

Now THAT would be a bestseller for guitarists ! And required reading for all Wharton School MBA's !!!

Thanks for the other tidbit, I don't have that one, usually rely on the Kamimoto one for guitar electronics.

**dh82c** · 10-23-2009, 08:14 PM

I love books. Have tons of old tube books. The Big Red RCA book. ARRL books, receiving tube manuals etc. The Brosnac book is EXCELLENT. I bought my copy 20 years ago. Copyright 1983. I imagine back then there was ZIP available and that was when DiMarzio and Shecter were starting to take off. Too bad only 20 pages is available on Google.

**randyc** · 10-23-2009, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by dh82c

The Big Red RCA book. ARRL books, receiving tube manuals etc.

I have these as well, they're irreplaceable. RCA and the older Amateur Radio Handbooks are amazingly detailed references. I'm such a nerd that I read those things for entertainment, making margin notes and correcting any errors that I find.

RCA proofread their manuals scrupulously, never found an error, but the ARH's are a different story, some of them have more mistakes than I would have thought they should.

But that's not quite fair since a lot of those articles may have been written by dentists, yardworkers, machinists and musicians

They've never required engineering degrees from their contributors and that's frequently a good thing because other, highly interesting, viewpoints are exposed.

**dh82c** · 10-23-2009, 09:24 PM

I think everyman part of the ARRL books is why I learn more from them. I was a year short of finishing my engineering degree when (EDIT:like an idiot) I decided to switch and get my bachelors in physics. The Langford-Smith book still gives me cold sweats.

**Meggy** · 10-24-2009, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by RAQ

I was always under the impression humbucker type pickups came with .022 caps and 500K pots - I thought it was the single coils that had .047 and 250K pots. I know this is a generalisation, but I thought it was generally true. I'm going to have to start looking into this now, otherwise I shalln't be able to sleep at nights. These last few posts are really useful though - thanks.

Oops!

Actually I think the ones I used/replaced probably were .022... sorry, should not have said .047.

And out of interest I'm sure the pots are 500K on my solidbody. Also out of interest, I have a linear volume which works smoothly - good useful taper, and a logarithmic/audio taper on the tone which is OK but does not do much below about 4 - I speculate that a linear might be better for that too.