Ways or devices to let the back of the guitar resonate

[rio]

I have thought about this for a while but just now am starting to play around with how to make it happen. Some of you know this but for those that don’t, in a resonant guitar you can notice a volume decrease when you have the guitar back up against your stomach. The less resonant the guitar is the less prominent it is but you can try it by playing with the guitar right up against you and then moving it forward a little so the back is not touching you and you can hear a difference in tone and volume.

I have been playing with the guitar tilted a bit (like how Wes positioned his guitar but not to such a degree) and that does let the back resonate. But it makes it harder to use my fourth finger and reach as far with my left hand. I can just move the guitar out a bit and keep it there with my arm but this leaves me less flexible when I am playing. This is on the L5 by the way, which is perfect for me ergonomically right up against my stomach but when I am playing unamplified in my living room or with students it is nice to hear the full acoustic potential of the instrument.

How have you all dealt with this, if at all? Are there products made or little tricks that might help with this somehow (like I am thinking about those floating arm rests some arch tops have to keep your arm from inhibiting the vibration of the top)?


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[Jabberwocky]

Sorry, I misread your post.

Perhaps you may find this suitable: Guitarlift: Die innovative Gitarrenstutze mit Klangeffekt. ?


I use a Neck Up. NeckUp Guitar Support Neck Up

[A440]

I have an archtop with a sound post, which means that about half the acoustic power is coming from the back. I have noticed that it is much louder (and nicer) acoustically if I can hold it away from my body. The suggestions from jabberwocky are interesting, but they are primarily designed to lift the guitar higher. I can't help wondering if there might be a more elegant solution. Perhaps a spacer that would sit behind the guitar body?

[GNAPPI]

It's all about angles...

[OzMando]

I know you can get a rubber mounted wire frame for the back of flat tops and mandolin which are popular in the bluegrass world where acoustic power is always highly valued. I can't remember the name of them right now though.

Edit: I can only find the mando version which is called a "tone guard". I thought there was a flat backed guitar version but I can't seem to spot it.

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[LtKojak]

Considering that's the guitar's top vibration the one producing and projecting the sound, finding a way to allow the back to resonate, will in fact reduce in half the heard projection of the sound.

Why this might be good thing?

I'm all ears!

[jazzbow]

It's all about angles...

I've just spat my coffee over my Samsung tab, thanks Gnaps.
LMAO

[Matt Cushman]

The Tone-Gard for an archtop is a custom order but it looks like you can get one made.Tone-Gard

[bleakanddivine]

This is only an issue when standing up, yes? When I play sitting down there is always several inches of clearance between the guitar back and my body. In fact I would find it quite unnatural to play with the back braced hard against my body, except at the rims of course.

[Gramps]

The Tone-Gard for an archtop is a custom order but it looks like you can get one made.Tone-Gard

I have one for my Martin OM that is shown in the Tone-Gard Gallary (number 44). Check out number 46, Brian Delaney. He had one made for his L5. Gallery - Tone-Gard

I love it on my Martin but didn't want one on my Eastman (electric with thin solid spruce top) so I can prevent feedback a bit easier.

Good luck.

[TedBPhx]

I’ve taken 10” off my waist over the last ten years.

[rio]

This is only an issue when standing up, yes? When I play sitting down there is always several inches of clearance between the guitar back and my body. In fact I would find it quite unnatural to play with the back braced hard against my body, except at the rims of course.

No, it’s definitely sitting down too. When you say the rims are you saying that only the rim is against you like the guitar is tilted? Different strokes for different folks but for me my right arm goes around the guitar in such a way that it keeps the guitar against my torso and the guitar is totally upright since that facilitates better left hand technique for me. Any tilt makes it harder to stretch my pinky when needed and keep my wrist straight. Hard to describe so I hope that is a good enough explanation. It is basically identical to when I stand with a strap - I want the two to be the same so there is no adjustment between standing and sitting for my hands.

The Tone-Gard for an archtop is a custom order but it looks like you can get one made.Tone-Gard

That looks interesting - I wonder how easy it is to take off since I would probably not want the back resonating while playing amplified since it would feed back more easily.

Considering that's the guitar's top vibration the one producing and projecting the sound, finding a way to allow the back to resonate, will in fact reduce in half the heard projection of the sound.

Why this might be good thing?

I'm all ears!

Well, like I said this is for me in my living room, teaching and playing in very small spaces. If I need to project I will plug in the L5 - it’s not an acoustic L5 after all so it’s not an acoustic powerhouse. But it does sound better to me as the player when the back is vibrating freely. I would be curious though exactly how much volume in front of me would be lost with the back vibrating vs. not vibrating. I play upright bass too and there is a big advantage standing up vs. sitting down because of he back vibrating too. This is widely regarded as a big advantage of standing up and why many classical soloists stand up despite needing to sit in symphony orchestras (mainly due to aesthetics).




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[Gramps]

No, it’s definitely sitting down too. When you say the rims are you saying that only the rim is against you like the guitar is tilted? Different strokes for different folks but for me my right arm goes around the guitar in such a way that it keeps the guitar against my torso and the guitar is totally upright since that facilitates better left hand technique for me. Any tilt makes it harder to stretch my pinky when needed and keep my wrist straight. Hard to describe so I hope that is a good enough explanation. It is basically identical to when I stand with a strap - I want the two to be the same so there is no adjustment between standing and sitting for my hands.



That looks interesting - I wonder how easy it is to take off since I would probably not want the back resonating while playing amplified since it would feed back more easily.



Well, like I said this is for me in my living room, teaching and playing in very small spaces. If I need to project I will plug in the L5 - it’s not an acoustic L5 after all so it’s not an acoustic powerhouse. But it does sound better to me as the player when the back is vibrating freely. I would be curious though exactly how much volume in front of me would be lost with the back vibrating vs. not vibrating. I play upright bass too and there is a big advantage standing up vs. sitting down because of he back vibrating too. This is widely regarded as a big advantage of standing up and why many classical soloists stand up despite needing to sit in symphony orchestras (mainly due to aesthetics).




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They're easy to take off and you may have to take it off when you put your instrument in a case. I'll try to post a picture of how it attaches.

IMG_0845.JPG - Google Drive

The 'L' shape wires on the left edge of the photo can be gently bent to adjust fit. There are 3 of them on each side of the guitar. The cage it's self rests on the back, along the edge (rim?), protected by small pads. (you can see the pads in the picture)

I can just slide mine off the guitar by gently pulling straight back. OTOH you'll want to be gentle bending the 'L' wires around. They seem to be made to adjust and then leave them alone.

[rio]

They're easy to take off and you may have to take if off when you put your instrument in a case. I'll try to post a picture of how it attaches.

Thanks - that would be much appreciated since it is hard to see what’s going on in the photos on their website.


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[Gramps]

Thanks - that would be much appreciated since it is hard to see what’s going on in the photos on their website.


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Link is in my post now.

Since mine is almost 15 years old now you can see the welds easily. When it was new the black paint covered the welds.

[rio]

Link is in my post now.

Since mine is almost 15 years old now you can see the welds easily. When it was new the black paint covered the welds.

That looks very interesting - thanks for the photo. How much room does it put between you and the back of the guitar? Also, having had it so long has there been any impact on the finish of the guitars you’ve used it on? My L5 is not at all pristine and has seen heavy use before I got it but I’m still wondering about what might happen with repeated times putting on and taking off something like that.


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[neatomic]

freddie green held his guitar in that unusual slant style for that very reason..he was trying to avoid damping the back of the guitar



cheers

[Gramps]

The offset is about 1/2 inch in the center of the instrument and arch built into it comes right down to the rim.

IMG_0847.JPG - Google Drive

As to wear and tear to your instrument look at the peoples instruments how are using them. I've found that hand crafted mandolins are no cheaper than their guitar counterparts. I see no wear and tear on my guitar but it has a mat finish and is my "Outdoor Festival" guitar, not a collector's item.

Contact the builder. When I dealt with him years ago he was very helpful.

Good luck.

[rio]

freddie green held his guitar in that unusual slant style for that very reason..he was trying to avoid damping the back of the guitar



cheers

I had read about him saying that was to project the volume up and out but I could be wrong and keeping the back resonating is definitely an advantage of that. Messing around with positioning the guitar like Wes (similar to Freddie but not so extreme) does get a bigger sound, at least from where I am sitting but again the disadvantage is that it limits my 4th finger reach.

The offset is about 1/2 inch in the center of the instrument and arch built into it comes right down to the rim.

IMG_0847.JPG - Google Drive

As to wear and tear to your instrument look at the peoples instruments how are using them. I've found that hand crafted mandolins are no cheaper than their guitar counterparts. I see no wear and tear on my guitar but it has a mat finish and is my "Outdoor Festival" guitar, not a collector's item.

Contact the builder. When I dealt with him years ago he was very helpful.

Good luck.

That picture looks like something I would definitely use and I will get in touch with the guy. Very neat product.


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[neatomic]

the two are not mutually exclusive!!...less damping more volume!

recently saw a video of jimmy bruno talking about it..freddie told him that it was to keep the back off his body

cheers

[hotpepper01]

the two are not mutually exclusive!!...less damping more volume!

recently saw a video of jimmy bruno talking about it..freddie told him that it was to keep the back off his body

cheers

Freddie played all acoustic. Freddie had to cope with the volume of the Basie band.
Back in the day when Freddie started with the Count Basie Bigband, the band played on a much lower volume. When the band got louder, Freddie had to increase his volume. He did so by increasing the body, raising his bridge, use of microphones, heavier strings, use of his famous one note chords etc.

I tried to play all acoustic in my own bigband. Not succesfull I must admit. The volume was way too low compared to the volume of the band.

[oldane]

It's all about angles...

Hey, don't post pictures of me without my consent.

[TH]

The gut is not only the enemy of the guitarist. Art Tatum had made a trademark of his long hand over hand runs up the piano keyboard. Listen to his later recordings. Not so much. Listen recordings of the last years he recorded. Not at all. Why? His gut wouldn't allow his hands to cross in front of him.
Guitarists got it good.

David

[LtKojak]

this is for me in my living room, teaching and playing in very small spaces. it’s not an acoustic L5 after all

Oh, I see. I totally missed the part of being an electric L-5. Sorry!

Fun fact: my late uncle, Roberto Nicholson, who built custom-ordered classical guitars for the top pro argentinian folk artists in the late '60s, early 70s, like Eduardo Falu' and Atahualpa Yupanqui, or tango players like Ubaldo de Lio, just to name a few, patented the concept of a double-bodied guitar, specifically a smaller but fully-vibrant second body inside the body of the guitar, making the case that this concept made the projection of the vibration produced by the smaller body and both tops working in tandem and in harmony with each other, better and louder.

The depositary of the patent was Casa Nunez, the guitar-making company he worked for.

[LtKojak]

Hey, don't post pictures of me without my consent.

Well... it resembles me too. A LOT!

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